sprestwood
Well-known member
What are some tips you guys have in reeling in fish that are really too big for light weight reels, rods, and line? Assuming you have set your drag to the max your line can handle.
Big fish - Light Tackle
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mallardecho
Well-known member
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A good trolling motor............
rsimms
Well-known member
A loose drag and lot's of patience... barring underwater obstacles that break line, basically any fish can be worn down on any kind of tackle. It's just a matter of which of you can outlast the other.
Just ask EricM and/or polo-dog who have each fought fish five to eight hours... I've never tried, but honestly not sure I could do it. I would start trying to "force the issue," and that's when I'd break him off.
Just ask EricM and/or polo-dog who have each fought fish five to eight hours... I've never tried, but honestly not sure I could do it. I would start trying to "force the issue," and that's when I'd break him off.
SpurHunter
Well-known member
Rsimms hit it on the head. I owe him for my first striper that I caught back in December.
12lbs of pure muscle on my ultralight crappie rod with 4lb line. I would have tried to horse him in the heat of the battle, but Richard keep me cool, and we landed it. It helped we were in wide open water, without any worry of breaking off on structure.
12lbs of pure muscle on my ultralight crappie rod with 4lb line. I would have tried to horse him in the heat of the battle, but Richard keep me cool, and we landed it. It helped we were in wide open water, without any worry of breaking off on structure.
Ronnie Garrison
Well-known member
Backreel! I keep the antireverse turned off and backreel when the fish makes a strong run - using a cheap spinning reel. I catch a good many 3 and 4 pound bullheads in my pond on four pound line and I need to put some pressure on them when they run toward grass or brush, but when they head toward open water I can backreel and let them take line.
A good drag will do most of the work and you can cup the spool when you need more pressure, but my cheap reels don't have good drag!
A good drag will do most of the work and you can cup the spool when you need more pressure, but my cheap reels don't have good drag!
polo-dog
Well-known member
There are a couple of thing that really can make a big difference with big fish on light line. There are two types of reels that can be used, spinning and baitcasting. The good thing about spinning reels are that the line is always in the line guides even when the rod is bent far over. With baitcasting tackle there is a chance that if the guides are too far apart that the line will come in contact with the rod and this will break the line. There are special rods that are made specially for using baitcasting reels but have a large number of line guides and they are situated in a spiral fashion to move the line from above the rod to below the rod at the tip. I think that EricM has a rod or two that he uses like that when using light line. With a baitcaster there is no advantage to backreeling, the drag doesn't impart any twist to the line when a fish makes a run against the drag. That is an advantage. With spinning tackle it's important to use the drag as little as possible because when the fish makes a run and pulls out line against the drag it imparts rotational torque on the line. If there is too much of this twisting the line will be weakened and break. Instead of using the drag with spinning tackle you must have your reel set to be able to back reel, so when the fish makes a run the angler back reels so as not to let the drag do the work. With both spinning and baitcasting gear it is important to have the drag set at about 1/2 the breaking stength of the line. In the case of baitcasting tackle the drag and a light rod is what wears the fish down. With spinning tackle it's the backreeling and rod that wears the fish down and the drag is a backup to keep the fish from making a run and breaking the line. With many fish the problem becomes the fish either wrapping in obstructions such as brush or using it's body to break the line. A tarpon will fall onto the line that's why you've heard of "bowing" to a tarpon that jumps, giving the line slack because the drag can only help so much. With catfish the problem becomes them twisting their bodies onto the line and breaking it. That's why the line gets slimed so bad when you bring a catfish to the boat. Keeping the line really slack when you feel a catfish roll on the line is really important in my experience with light line. I have had some catfish on the line for more than 4 hours and have them pull until they got into the same spot where I hooked them and not be able to budge them after that. They went back into a cave or under a big tree or something and that was it. I try to lead them into open water but often there are obstructions that you can't see that they will try to get to. I have had a 26lb flathead on 4lb test that got under a tree limb out near the creek channel and I could feel the line rubbing on the brush but luckily he came out of the brush and I landed him after 45 minutes. I know that I can hook a new 2lb test flathead catfish back in the creek near my house as I have caught fish bigger than the record of 33lbs and have let them all go but I have yet to land a big one on 2lb test. It's an all day undertaking and so I don't do it often. Last year the conditions, when I was available to fish for a record, were not right and so didn't hook up a big one last year. With my old job I had more days open to try for a record. It's fun to play with but I wouldn't do it every day. I'm more of a numbers fisherman than I am a record breaker. The rules for submitting info for a World or State record are spelled out at the IGFA website: http://www.igfa.org/BookRule2004.pdf and if you try for a record you had better know the rules, right EricM? He's got a bunch of them.
EricM
Well-known member
Be patient!!!!!!!! Then be patient some more!!!!
Here is a short article I submitted to the Brotherhood of Catfishermen site concerning big fish on ultralight:
I have taken up the challenge of catching big blue catfish on ultralight lines and would like to pass on some of the hard-earned knowledge to those looking to try it for themselves. This really only applies in relatively open water with few hang-ups.
Let's use 4 pound test for this discussion. Heavier lines will still be valid within this application, there will just be more room for error.
I personally use Ande Tournament monofilament. This is a very high grade line that will break at or slightly below it's rated strength. Many brands will overtest and cause you to lose that record if ever you are lucky enough to catch it. It carries a hefty price tag, but in the overall picture it's well worth it.
For the reel, I prefer a casting outfit. The line pulls straight off of the reel and doesn't make that sharp turn like it does on a spinning rod bail. Another real plus is that the line won't twist on a casting reel. It is inherent in the design of a spinning reel that the line will twist, and with the number of times you will gain and lose line while fighting a big fish there can be a significant amount of twist, and this will weaken your line over time. Remember, monofilament will lose about 10% of its strength after soaking in water for a period of time. You need every advantage fishing with an ultralight. My personal choice for the reel is a Shimano Cardiff 100. It has a very smooth drag and has a very low inertia on the start-up of the drag. I actually have to look at the reel to see that the drag is pulling - I can't feel it start. This is very important when a fish surges - if the drag doesn't give smoothly and immediately the line will break. And that drag is going to get a workout! I preset the drag with a scale. I put a big curve in the rod and set the drag at about 30%-33% of the rated line strength. This is about 1-1/2 pounds for the 4 lb test. Later in the fight, when the fish weakens, I will add a slight amount more drag, maybe 1/2 pound, but it leaves very little room for error on my part while fighting the fish.
For the rod, you will want a long, soft rod that bends smoothly from tip to butt. The rod has to absorb the runs and surges of that big blue cat, and a stiffer rod with a fast tip (most of the bend in the top of the rod) will not protect the line. The soft, sweeping curve of a long, soft rod will pick up those surges and give the drag more start-up time. Another advantage is that the rod will be loaded fairly deeply most of the time, so when a fish turns toward you or runs upwards you will have pressure on the fish longer and can catch up with it before the line goes slack. I use a 7' ultralight with a long handle. My favorite has 10 guides to keep the line curve smooth. It feels like there is no backbone at all to the rod, but it actually does a supurb job. As it happens, this one is a Shakespeare Ugly Stik Ultralight and the local sporting goods dealer ordered it for me since I couldn't find one in stock.
For the terminal tackle, I use a swivel, then a 4' length of 20 pound test leader, then another snap swivel, then a snelled hook. The IGFA allows 6' of any test leader, and it is absolutely nessary for protection against the spines of the fish and any trash, rocks, etc. in the water. With this set-up, I prefer 2/0 circle hooks or 2/0 to #2 kahle hooks. There is very little hookset required with these and they don't need a big bite with the gap because you won't be able to put enough pressure on the fish to have it pull loose in most circumstances. The knots I use are all palomar, and I use a lot of care when tying them to make sure that the loop doesn't twist. This will keep the knot as strong as it can be - remember, you only have a couple of pounds of strength to start with!
This info is the best I have found so far. I have caught many good-sized cats with it, the best boated so far has been 38 pounds (about an hour), although I have had much bigger fish to the boat and managed to lose them one way or another. The largest on ultraligh that I have managed to lose at the boat I estimated at 70+/- pounds and had fought for 8+ hours into the dark and just wasn't prepared with enough light to see the fish soon enough to net it properly! I sure won't make that mistake again!
Good Fishing and Good Luck!
Here is a short article I submitted to the Brotherhood of Catfishermen site concerning big fish on ultralight:
I have taken up the challenge of catching big blue catfish on ultralight lines and would like to pass on some of the hard-earned knowledge to those looking to try it for themselves. This really only applies in relatively open water with few hang-ups.
Let's use 4 pound test for this discussion. Heavier lines will still be valid within this application, there will just be more room for error.
I personally use Ande Tournament monofilament. This is a very high grade line that will break at or slightly below it's rated strength. Many brands will overtest and cause you to lose that record if ever you are lucky enough to catch it. It carries a hefty price tag, but in the overall picture it's well worth it.
For the reel, I prefer a casting outfit. The line pulls straight off of the reel and doesn't make that sharp turn like it does on a spinning rod bail. Another real plus is that the line won't twist on a casting reel. It is inherent in the design of a spinning reel that the line will twist, and with the number of times you will gain and lose line while fighting a big fish there can be a significant amount of twist, and this will weaken your line over time. Remember, monofilament will lose about 10% of its strength after soaking in water for a period of time. You need every advantage fishing with an ultralight. My personal choice for the reel is a Shimano Cardiff 100. It has a very smooth drag and has a very low inertia on the start-up of the drag. I actually have to look at the reel to see that the drag is pulling - I can't feel it start. This is very important when a fish surges - if the drag doesn't give smoothly and immediately the line will break. And that drag is going to get a workout! I preset the drag with a scale. I put a big curve in the rod and set the drag at about 30%-33% of the rated line strength. This is about 1-1/2 pounds for the 4 lb test. Later in the fight, when the fish weakens, I will add a slight amount more drag, maybe 1/2 pound, but it leaves very little room for error on my part while fighting the fish.
For the rod, you will want a long, soft rod that bends smoothly from tip to butt. The rod has to absorb the runs and surges of that big blue cat, and a stiffer rod with a fast tip (most of the bend in the top of the rod) will not protect the line. The soft, sweeping curve of a long, soft rod will pick up those surges and give the drag more start-up time. Another advantage is that the rod will be loaded fairly deeply most of the time, so when a fish turns toward you or runs upwards you will have pressure on the fish longer and can catch up with it before the line goes slack. I use a 7' ultralight with a long handle. My favorite has 10 guides to keep the line curve smooth. It feels like there is no backbone at all to the rod, but it actually does a supurb job. As it happens, this one is a Shakespeare Ugly Stik Ultralight and the local sporting goods dealer ordered it for me since I couldn't find one in stock.
For the terminal tackle, I use a swivel, then a 4' length of 20 pound test leader, then another snap swivel, then a snelled hook. The IGFA allows 6' of any test leader, and it is absolutely nessary for protection against the spines of the fish and any trash, rocks, etc. in the water. With this set-up, I prefer 2/0 circle hooks or 2/0 to #2 kahle hooks. There is very little hookset required with these and they don't need a big bite with the gap because you won't be able to put enough pressure on the fish to have it pull loose in most circumstances. The knots I use are all palomar, and I use a lot of care when tying them to make sure that the loop doesn't twist. This will keep the knot as strong as it can be - remember, you only have a couple of pounds of strength to start with!
This info is the best I have found so far. I have caught many good-sized cats with it, the best boated so far has been 38 pounds (about an hour), although I have had much bigger fish to the boat and managed to lose them one way or another. The largest on ultraligh that I have managed to lose at the boat I estimated at 70+/- pounds and had fought for 8+ hours into the dark and just wasn't prepared with enough light to see the fish soon enough to net it properly! I sure won't make that mistake again!
Good Fishing and Good Luck!
G
Guest
Guest
This thread so far has some great ideas on preparing for a challenging way to sport-fish ! I love ultralight gear but have always applied it to spinning gear and panfish. I may just get myself a good small rig like ErickM mentioned and give this a try but I have a question about the fight-times vs fish survival.</p>
I release about 99.9 % of the fish I catch and if possible I will release ALL 6 or 7 that I catch annually emoRolleyes Do fish have a good chance at survival after total exaustion ... "hours" was mentioned. </p>
I don't have a negative opinion about doing this type of fishing at all.I would think that thetinynumber of people fishing like thiswould havean extremely smallimpact on the fishery even with poor survival predictions ... just asking for my info only... and anyone else that might be considering trying it. </p>
Of course if a nice cat appears to be non-revivable it could always be converted to tablefare ! emoHungry </p>
Nice post, Thanks</p>
</p>
</p>
I release about 99.9 % of the fish I catch and if possible I will release ALL 6 or 7 that I catch annually emoRolleyes Do fish have a good chance at survival after total exaustion ... "hours" was mentioned. </p>
I don't have a negative opinion about doing this type of fishing at all.I would think that thetinynumber of people fishing like thiswould havean extremely smallimpact on the fishery even with poor survival predictions ... just asking for my info only... and anyone else that might be considering trying it. </p>
Of course if a nice cat appears to be non-revivable it could always be converted to tablefare ! emoHungry </p>
Nice post, Thanks</p>
</p>
</p>
EricM
Well-known member
Lil Mutt, I personally don't believe that you exhaust a truly big fish on tiny lines. That's the reason the fight lasts for hours - the fish rests when it wants to. The fight is actually a "guide trip", you guide the fish slowly back toward the boat. The fish does get tired, but not to exhaustion. You have to finesse the fish to where you want it because you are able to put so little pressure on it. By using the trolling motor and staying directly above the fish, I think you can "fool" it into the top of the water column.
G
Guest
Guest
Thanks Eric,</p>
That makes perfect sense to me. Now that you mention it I have even done the same thing basically when I got a fairly large fish near landing and noticed it was barely hooked- after it turned for another run I sort of lightly tricked it near enough for a net although it took awhile.</p>
Thanks again,</p>
</p>
That makes perfect sense to me. Now that you mention it I have even done the same thing basically when I got a fairly large fish near landing and noticed it was barely hooked- after it turned for another run I sort of lightly tricked it near enough for a net although it took awhile.</p>
Thanks again,</p>
</p>
polo-dog
Well-known member
I agree with you whole heartedly EricM. I think that the only way to get a really big fish in the net on light line it to mentally beat them. I don't think that physically with such light line you can exhaust them. It usually seems like all at once they just sort of give up and start coming towards the boat easily. Often however once they see the boat or see the net they make a big run and that's when it's really important to have all of your ducks in a row and hope that your drag doesn't have trouble with start up. The amount of line out the end of the rod can make a big difference as to the amount of shock absorption that you have too. When the fish is close to the boat you are really at risk of losing the fish. On tiny mistake is all it takes and that wimpy line will fail. I don't have a baitcaster that has a good enough drag to meet these needs but with a good spinning reel and a good feel for back reeling I think that I have a better chance with my spinning tackle than I do with my baitcasting. I have also used a saltwater tactic using a doubled line for the first few feet of the main line after the shock leader of 20 or 30lb test. I think that the total length of the shock leader plus the double line can't be more than 10 feet in length. I think with the doubling of the line you have more shock absorption with the shorter length of line out from the rod tip and it may save some fish that you get near the boat that make a surge when close. Most of the saltwater guys use a bimini twist to make a double line but I've tried to tie it and don't feel good at it. I have used a loop on the end made with a double surgeon's knot and then used a palomar with the loop and it hasn't failed me yet. I do think that as you said Eric, when you get the fish close to the boat if you are not really well prepaired with good lighting and a good netting procedure that it can really hurt to have that big one get away there close to the boat. I did buy a gaff and have tried to get good with one and figure that if I have one good shot at a big one near the boat that if it's only me in the boat that that will be my best shot as I don't have a huge net. I hope that this year I will get a chance at a record again. Eric, if you would like to go for a record one day and wouldn't mind me out there with you with 2lb test going for the 2lb record I would love to go for a big blue. I have been working on a big flathead but I'm not opposed to going for a blue cat record. You keep using that rope for the fish(4lb test) and I'll go with the real man's "string"(2lb test). emoAngel emoAngel
I don't have a subscription to IGFA but I know that rsimms does. What is the blue cat 2lb line class record? I'll bet that we could get it on the Chick.
rsimms
Well-known member
On the "light line causing mortality" issue, I'll disagree in part. Research projects have clearly shown that stripers (rockfish) fought to exhaustion on light line clearly suffer a very high mortality rate. The problem is not that much of an issue in cold water conditions, but in summertime, warm water conditions.... a long, exhaustive fight with a rockfish will most surely result in it's death... even if it appears to swim away unharmed, they simply cannot recover from the extremely high levels of lactic acid buildup in the muscle tissue. On Cherokee Lake in Upper East TN they set aside a No Fishing "Rockfish Refuge" because anglers had located a very restricted summertime hangout and catching lots of fish. Most were released, but the research showed that mortality rates were still up around 80% (I think). Hence the established the rockfish refuge. During the summer, if you want to release rockfish... use big tackle and big line so you can get them to the boat quickly while they are still "green."
Now as for other species, I know the same scenario can be true. Probably not to the same extent as rockfish. Black bass are certainly susceptible to increased summertime stress following a long battle. Studies show that tournament-caught bass suffer as much as a 50% or higher mortality rate. Whether it's due to the fight.... or due to getting banged around in a livewell is unclear. But it happens.
As for catfish, as far as I know there have been no studies about summertime mortality. I'm sure it can happen, but as we all know, catfish are tough critters. Lay a bass in the bottom of the boat for 15 minutes and he gets rock hard. Lay a catfish in the boat for 15 minutes and he'll swim away happy. I suspect summertime released catfish mortality is definitely not nearly as high as other species, but I would not say that it can't happen.
Even when I'm catching small catfish, I'm usually using big tackle. I tell clients that I prefer to be "over-gunned" in the event "the big one" bites... and that really is the main reason. However I suspect a side benefit of using big tackle is less stress on the fish.
Now as for other species, I know the same scenario can be true. Probably not to the same extent as rockfish. Black bass are certainly susceptible to increased summertime stress following a long battle. Studies show that tournament-caught bass suffer as much as a 50% or higher mortality rate. Whether it's due to the fight.... or due to getting banged around in a livewell is unclear. But it happens.
As for catfish, as far as I know there have been no studies about summertime mortality. I'm sure it can happen, but as we all know, catfish are tough critters. Lay a bass in the bottom of the boat for 15 minutes and he gets rock hard. Lay a catfish in the boat for 15 minutes and he'll swim away happy. I suspect summertime released catfish mortality is definitely not nearly as high as other species, but I would not say that it can't happen.
Even when I'm catching small catfish, I'm usually using big tackle. I tell clients that I prefer to be "over-gunned" in the event "the big one" bites... and that really is the main reason. However I suspect a side benefit of using big tackle is less stress on the fish.
rsimms
Well-known member
It took me a while to find my website Login. The 2 lb. Line Class World Record for a Blue Catfish is 36 lb.s, 9 oz. It was taken in 2000 by Bob Shepherd on the James River in Virginia.
As EricM knows, the 4 lb. Line Class World Record is 47 lb.s 9 oz. It was also taken by Bob Shepherd on the James River.
And if you didn't know, the 10 lb. Line Class World Record (109 lbs. 12 oz.) was taken from Chickamauga Lake in 2005 by a young man named Zachery Lovelady. He was fishing from shore in Soddy Creek I believe. Zachery's fish was just about 2 lbs away from the Tennessee State Record (on rod & reel). Here is the entire list (note EricM's name is on there). emoThumbsup
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sprestwood
Well-known member
I would intentionally use appropriately sized gear when targeting a larger fish species. But I use ultra light tackle for the crappie and panfish. And my nephews that are learning fishing have their starter rods that are light. Occasionally a tanker plows into the hook. When your nephew asks you how to bring in a big fish and you tell him "You have to finesse him in" that doesnt really help him. Ive seen it, Ive done it a few times, but apparently there is not substitute in learning than experience.
Some ppl say keep the rod up and others say keep the fish's head up. Im not 100 percent sure why that is so important. Paper-mouth crappie seem to offer alot in terms of getting big fish in. They can not be forced in or the mouth will rip allowing even a barbed hook plenty of room to shake loose. But I have always kept some tension on the line. But considering my nephew has not brought in any crappie, telling him to treat all fish as if they have a paper mouth still comes short.
Perhaps I teach badly, perhaps my nephew is just slow to learn, perhaps fishing is more complicated and you need all the help you can get. Any fish caught by a young one is exciting but the bigger fish are still a bit more exciting. Im still looking for tips to help my nephews but everyone still loses a fish from time to time.
Some ppl say keep the rod up and others say keep the fish's head up. Im not 100 percent sure why that is so important. Paper-mouth crappie seem to offer alot in terms of getting big fish in. They can not be forced in or the mouth will rip allowing even a barbed hook plenty of room to shake loose. But I have always kept some tension on the line. But considering my nephew has not brought in any crappie, telling him to treat all fish as if they have a paper mouth still comes short.
Perhaps I teach badly, perhaps my nephew is just slow to learn, perhaps fishing is more complicated and you need all the help you can get. Any fish caught by a young one is exciting but the bigger fish are still a bit more exciting. Im still looking for tips to help my nephews but everyone still loses a fish from time to time.
SpurHunter
Well-known member
Looks like the 2, 4, 6 and 80# lines class records are open to be broken by somebody we know.... emoZipped
rsimms
Well-known member
What about YOU? Seems I remember a recent thread of you bragging about whippin' the tar out of "somebody we know." emoBigsmile emoPoke
SpurHunter
Well-known member
Sorry Richard, dont have the time, money, or energy to go after the records. I will have to stick to imaginary "cage matches"... emoLaugh
polo-dog
Well-known member
So KWoods, what do the In-Fisherman guys say about cats on light line? Anything that seems useful? I used to get In-Fisherman and really have always enjoyed it but I get a couple of other mags and don't usually have time to read them all and so even though it always had great info I finally dropped that subscription. There was often great research info that really helped me to understand why fish do what they do. I hope that you are enjoying it.
KWoods
Well-known member
Sorry about the delay, Polo Dog, been really busy. The title is actually "Monster Flatheads on Thin Line" and is an article from the early nineties that the editor said warrented re-printing since catfishing has become so popular.
It mostly deals with fishing a 1/2 oz. jig tipped with a 4 inch minnow on 8# line and making drifts below dams like some CFF'er are doing now. RSimms is among those who are very good at this, plus, if you lose a rod I hear he'll go in after it. emoFish emoFish emoFish
It mostly deals with fishing a 1/2 oz. jig tipped with a 4 inch minnow on 8# line and making drifts below dams like some CFF'er are doing now. RSimms is among those who are very good at this, plus, if you lose a rod I hear he'll go in after it. emoFish emoFish emoFish
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