Hiwassee. Hot Water-

[Guest]

This is the scoop on the TVA hot water discharge into the Hiwassee. Reportedly there was a massive fish kill from the dam all the way down to Reliance. We are trying to get a couple of guides on the river to take some pics of the fish paving the bottom of the river... www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_133655.asp Outdoors August 22, 2008 click for chattanooga, tennessee forecast Hot Water in the Hiwassee Concerns over trout due to unexpected warm water release (80 degrees F) by Richard Simms posted August 21, 2008 Area trout anglers and government biologists are watching the Hiwassee River like hawks. Most of this week TVA has been spilling extremely warm water over the top of Apalachia Dam on the Hiwassee River, potentially endangering the trout fishery. A TVA spokesman says the breakdown of one of two generators forced them to spill water over the top of the dam. He says however that the generator was repaired Wednesday afternoon and operation is back to normal. Dan Hicks, spokesman for the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency, said, "We're monitoring it really closely. We've been trying to trying to make (the Hiwassee) a trophy trout fishing situation... one our supervisors is really concerned about what the warm water temperatures and low oxygen could do to the fish." Jim Herrig, a biologist with the U.S. Forest Service was on the Hiwasee Wednesday. He says he measured 80 degree water temperatures immediately below the Apalachia Dam. "Water temperatures 80 degrees and above can be acutely toxic to trout," he said. Twelve miles downstream however at the Apalachia Powerhouse, Herrig said temperatures had fallen significantly. "I measured the water temperature just upstream from the generator outflow of 74 degrees," he said. "Downstream from the outflow, after the warmer and cooler water mixed, it was 70 degrees." That water temperature is at the upper end of what trout can tolerate without become extremely stressed. But again, according to a TVA spokesperson, the situation is back to normal as of Thursday. Hicks says TWRA personnel will continue to monitor the situation closely.

 

[JSV]

My Dad and I were planning a trip up to Reliance to Trout fish in the morning but with these conditions we may postpone that trip. I know July and August are always the two toughest months for me to fish Hiwassee and with the high temps and possible fish kill off, I am certain it will be much tougher. However just being up in the mountains and watching the fog lift and the sun come up and having the opportunity to fish with your Dad makes catching just an added blessing.
I am going to call Jerry at Reliance Fly and Tackle and see what additional information he may have.
Once again thanks for the information!

 

[stranahan]

Yes TVA did spill water over appalachia damm to compensate for the one generator being out. The reason that this was done was for the benifit of the rafting outfitters here on the Hiwassee, and downstream minimum flow requirements may have had something to do with it.
Yes it did hurt the fishing for few days, but if the water is that warm in a trout stream you shouldn't be fishing it anyway.
As far as the fish kill comments, please check your information again. We haven't spotted any major kill in any particular section of the river that i know of. I wouldn't be surprised if there were few floaters here and there though with the water being as warm as it was. But i have not heard of any or spotted any while i have been on the river myself.

Also the article by RSimms does not say that there was a fish kill on the river.

Both generators are back online and running on normal schedules, so everything should be fine on the river unless TVA decides to stop the generators after the labor day weekend.
__________________
www.ReelAnglingAdventures.com

 

[Guest]

Mr. Stranahan, I think you missed the point. First, the trout are the priority according to the charter.... not the rafters. Second, It was during the week and most schools are open and river traffic is way down... I doubt there were many trips if any over the week. Third, there is an existing plan within TVA to cover a generator out without discharging hot water into the stream and that plan was NOT followed. As for tolerating hot water a few days... and how one should not fish a warm stream , that attitude is simply insulting and not worth further comment.

Re: the fish kill. You won't see floaters unless the water remains hot long enough for gas to form in the bodies to bring them up. Trout sink when they die. From calls I received, fish could be seen rolling on the bottom belly up. But... lets let TNR handle it, it wouldn't do to stir up our friends at TVA or the rafting companies. Hey, the stripers survived.... and they will be hungry....

 

[Guest]

Update.... I checked with TDNR and they have a biologist doing an investigation at the current time. They have no comment on anything regarding a fish kill which is typical during an investigation. All we have so far is two different sides... TVA "all is well, the water is still wet"... and some trout anglers... "Dead fish"..... we will keep looking. Also... regarding the article, I talked with Richard Simms and he will not comment on a fish kill until the state makes a determination. Thank heaven some reporters still have scruples... Based on my personal past experience, we will be very lucky if we didn't lose a large number of fish... Trout just can't survive two or three days in the "extreme temperature range" they were exposed to.

 

[Guest]

JSV... if you do make the trip (Jerry wasn't in when I called) or you talk with him, please let me know if he has personal knowledge of the current situation.

Thanks,

John

 

[stranahan]

John,
The river fished fine yesterday, but that probably won't be the case for today. The generator has kicked out once again and the water is spilling down the old river bed as i am typing this in. The warm water should hit and mix at the powerhouse around 3 or so this afternoon. Now according to the charter that you speak off, hmmm whats the other option that TVA has??? Because they started to spill as soon as the second turbine went down.
Now as far as the comment about the type of attitude that i have in regaurds to the comments made. I think you are a little out of bounds. If people want to fish when the waters hot, warm, cold, I really don't care, that's there buisness and theirs alone.
Don't get your feathers up john as that is not my intention.
B.S.

 

[Guest]

Bill....
When you said the river fished fine yesterday, did you catch trout and what was your opinion of their condition? The charter I speak of is the permit for renewal for the dam that sets the priority of use.... ie: Recreation, Power... broken down to Trout, Rafting, public use.... Power, water quality, flood control, etc. Those items are listed as public information and are accessible through TVA or the Dept. of the Interior. The "other option" is continuous generation 24 hours to maintain water quality, ie: temperature and dissolved oxygen. Is TVA generating 24 hours X 7 days when one generator is down? Is the lake so high that spilling hot water is the only option? I've spent more than 40 years dealing with TVA and the Corps of Engineers on trying to establish water quality standards for tailwaters (GA TU and as a Guide from Montana to Tennessee and Georgia) and invariably they violate charters, ignore rules and regulations and operate with impunity. If the public allows government to run rough shod over their rights and dictate policy at will, we will ultimately end up fishing in sewers.

Hey.... I admit to being a crusty old curmudgeon... danged if I haven't earned the right...but, I would rather fish with someone than fight with them.

And I don't hate rafters either unless they drift between me and the bank I am fishing. (But thats why I carry the size 0 barbless salmon fly on my vest)

PS... please let me know if TVA stops generating at all while one generator is down....

 

[stranahan]

John,
The water was really high yesterday. The second turbine came back online before the spill water came through the gorge. The river actually looked better than i have seen it in a long time. The fish that we were catching were very healthy and fought well. They were alot of fun on a 3/4wt.
They didn't have the look of being stressed, which was a surprise considering the temps for a day or so.

 

[Guest]

Thats a relief..... Now I can cut back on my heart medications....

 

[zfish]

I fished the HI yesterday, seems like everything is back to normal. Didn't see any dead fish and water seemed cold as normal both upstream and down.

 

[JSV]

Sorry I didn’t report on Monday, this week has been very busy.
Dad and I did make the trip on Saturday and had a great trip.
The river looked good, fished well and we saw no dead fish.
We each caught at least 15 healthy Rainbows. I caught 4
Browns with the biggest being a little over 13inches.
My Dad caught several Browns with one being over the
14 inch mark and a true fighter. We fished just above the trophy
Area and used Roost-tails and worms. The bigger fish came off worms
With little to no weight attached to the line. We did do our share of catching
Those Horny-Heads. Unlike my last trip we did not catch an exotic fish like the
Tangerine Darter I caught on the last trip. Once again it was a great day out as it always is with Dad.

 

[Hagen]

We took a family float trip on Sunday. I saw several nice browns cruising the river and the water felt nice as well. Need to bring a rod next time.

 

[hiawaseebio]

i am doing research on the hot water situation. please email me at [email protected] if you have access to ANY data that shows when the change happened. i heard it was due to the amount of water being released that flushes the cold water down stream too quickly. i have been taking the water temperatures all summer and this fall, and the warmest was 78 degrees. the coolest i've gotten is 64. depressing. i'm trying to find the reason for the decline in trout populations. i have to present my research on december 9th. thanks!

 

[Guest]

Hiawasseebio,,, I have heard every conceivable excuse given by anyone with "their foot in the water". ie: a generator was down and TVA had to make up the power difference; TVA was "trying to help out the raft concessions"; they were running out of water above the dam; they had too much water above the dam, "Someone was asleep at the switch". I do know first hand that last week we quit fishing there because we caught 3 fish and one died from excessive heat.... we packed it in and went home. The only people with data would be the TDNR who were on site immediately and took data. I think it might be a good idea if we had the guide services in the area get together to purchase a recording thermometer for the river and install it down near Reliance. We need to start gathering data ourselves if we intend to keep this river healthy. You can't fight TVA without documentation! Thanks, John

 

[Guest]

Where were you doing the temp recording? Specifically how far down from the dam.... Thanks for caring enough to do a generally thankless job that the guide services on the river SHOULD be doing. (there I go being curmudgeony again) John

 

[Guest]

boltonjb3,

What is this charter you refer to? Non-federal dams (such as GA power dams) are licensed through FERC (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission), with requirements in their license (such as flows). However TVA has no license/charter. They do have guidelines, but they are just that, guidelines not hard and fast rules.

Also you do realize that pre-impoundment the Hiwassee was a warm water stream with no rainbow trout or brown trout(non-native). The cold water is an artificial product of the dams, not at all natural. The Hiwassee maintains a put and take trout fishery, where catchable sized trout are stocked for catching as there is little to no growth of the fish. The turbine upgrade was to install venting to allow more dissolved oxygen to be entrained into the water, which should help downstream water quality, as the cold released water is low in DO.

Please note that the Hiwassee has always had issues with warm waters, especially during drought years. You may want to read this for a full explaination of the causes: http://www2.tntech.edu/fish/PDF/Hiwassee1.pdf

hiawasseebio, look at figure 20 for temperature data in the above link. Note that the temps were taken before the 30 min pulse once every 4 hours. As the pulse is an attempt to reduce the high temperatures observed in the study (but not eliminate, especially in drought years).

EDIT to add:
Nothing really related to the discussion, but I thought it might be of some interest to both of you is a creel survey from 2004: http://www2.tntech.edu/fish/PDF/Hiwassee 2004.pdf

 

[Guest]

R14,

I am sorry, but you seem to have a basic misunderstanding about TVA. TVA is not the same Power Heavy it was back in the 40's and 50's. TVA is actually more like Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac. They are NOT funded by congress but act as an independent industry and are self funding. Hence, they no longer have the congressional tail to wag.

As for charter.... I refer you to TVA's own website : http://www.tva.com/environment/water/index.htm

At the bottom of the page you will find and I quote: "Stream discharges...

Like all industries that operate on the Tennessee River, TVA must also obtain discharge permits under the National Pollution Discharge Elimination System. Most of what is discharged into the river by TVA is water that has been heated during the process of generating electricity at coal-fired and nuclear plants. However, storm water, sewage, and substances produced by activities like coal and ash handling and equipment cooling are also treated and released within the limits set by a permit.

All of TVA’s power generation facilities hold discharge permits, as do some of its maintenance and power service shops. Each permit is very specific, and discharge limits are set at levels that protect aquatic life and human health."

TVA assures me that this extends to water generated power as well.... they have specific RULES and REGULATIONS they are REQUIRED to follow. Guidelines are non existant.

While a few old time TVA employees may think they operate with impunity, that is NOT the case.

If you want to get into real details.... the Hiwassee was actually a cold water stream before it became a warm water stream. During the last ice age, it was one of the channels that allowed those brookies to get up into the mountains. I could care less if its warm or cold as long as the regulations are followed. If TVA was as omnipotent as you believe, we would not have any TVA tailwaters to fish in. Generation would be around the clock and re-regulation dams would be on them all.

Also... TVA dams ARE regulated by FERC.... just read any TVA dam application for changes to existing dams or new construction.

Regards,

John

 

[hiawaseebio]

thanks for all the resopnse! i've been taking my temperatures behind hiwassee angler next to the bridge. i call every day and get the generator information and compare it to the water level on the bridge. it usually takes an hour or so for the water to reach that section of the river. i know the river was warm to begin with, and TVA made it cold for the fishing. i also know that the dam releases were altered in the early 90's and that's when the fish started dying/going downstream/dying shortly after being released. thanks for the websites and articles you've sent. they will realy help. again, if you happen to think of any other tiny bit of info, please pass it on! oh, i'm really focusing on rainbow trout populations because i've found the most scientific data concerning the effects of stress on their cardiovascular system.

 

[Guest]

Sorry John, you are grossly misinformed.

The NPDES permits that you mentioned are for coal fired, oil fired, natural gas fired, and nuclear plants, NOT hydroelectric plants.

I am certain that TVA is not regulated by the FERC, so certain I'll bet you a dozen lucky crafts. Find me a TVA application for Apalachia hydroelectric powerhouse with FERC and you will receive a dozen Lucky Crafts of your choice. Search FERC library here: http://www.ferc.gov/docs-filing/eLibrary.asp