A good Thanksgiving Lesson on Communilism/Socialism

[Sniperchoke]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/11/24/john-stossel-lost-lesson-thanksgiving/?test=faces

 

[outcaster]

So, Is Mr Stossel saying that....When the Pilgrims wised up, abandoned their religious convictions, and began to steal and conquer the new world from the Native Americans, that's when they became successful?

 

[Sniperchoke]

outcaster - 11/26/2010 9:25 AM

So, Is Mr Stossel saying that....When the Pilgrims wised up, abandoned their religious convictions, and began to steal and conquer the new world from the Native Americans, that's when they became successful?

You didn't read the article did you?

 

[outcaster]

Sniperchoke - 11/26/2010 10:38 AM

outcaster - 11/26/2010 9:25 AM

So, Is Mr Stossel saying that....When the Pilgrims wised up, abandoned their religious convictions, and began to steal and conquer the new world from the Native Americans, that's when they became successful?

You didn't read the article did you?

I did read the drivel. Shouldn't have, but did anyway. Un-like most, I can read between the lines, consider the source, and draw an accurate conclusion. Very few, if any will tell you that communism is an effective way to have a successful civilization. But as you and your mentors (Mr. Stossel, and Prof Williams) always do,.... tie any kind of Socialist measures in our civilization directly to a desire to create a "new and improved" communist State is laughable, and worse than that, it's and outright lie. And he, and those like him need to be "called" on it.

 

[Guest]

It is not a lie Danny. It is the truth no matter how many times you say it is a lie.

 

[outcaster]

cheez - 11/26/2010 1:22 PM

It is not a lie Danny. It is the truth no matter how many times you say it is a lie.

Really? Got any proof? Any verifiable data? Any secret communist meetings that you know about? Fact is, you don't. Until you can show me a "stated goal of USSR style communism by any current or past liberal thinking relevant politician, I'll call it a lie. Your type of political beliefs are based on fear, and nothing else. As I recall, past Liberal politicians stood up to the USSR and repelled the advance of communism. Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, and Carter all took serious steps to fight the advance of communism. Reagan was only too happy to take credit for their work. The USA has been the most successful Nation on the planet because of capitalism, checked by the rule of law, and socialistic policies where capitalism falls short. Instead of having a meaningful discussion about which side (social or capital) needs to solve a problem in our society, it's just much easier to paint the other side as followers of Stalin and Hitler.

 

[Possum]

Foxnews and Williams is like crack Snip. Hope you enjoyed you meal.

 

[Sniperchoke]

I think Mr. Stossel is proving the failures of socialism not trying to say anyone is a communist dictator. I believe he is pointing to the notion that once you take from the doers and give to the takers pretty soon their aren't any doers. And that destroys an economy and livelyhoods.

 

[outcaster]

Sniperchoke - 11/27/2010 12:15 AM

I think Mr. Stossel is proving the failures of socialism not trying to say anyone is a communist dictator. I believe he is pointing to the notion that once you take from the doers and give to the takers pretty soon their aren't any doers. And that destroys an economy and livelyhoods.

Well duh! Almost everyone knows that communism left un-checked will lead to failure of any civilization. Tell me something I don't already know. The problem I have with guys like Stossel, Williams, Boortz, and Libertarians in general, is that they refuse to acknowledge any failure at all with a pure capitalistic system, although I, and others can give examples of scores of them. But instead they look for excuses, and others (the Gov't) to blame those failures on. You guys see almost every socialistic measure in our society as a hidden desire to to force this Nation to a 1970's style new and improved USSR. Capitalism's most dangerous element is greed, just as socialism's most dangerous element is laziness, as Mr Stossel pointed out. But when you combine the good elements of socialism and capitalism (hard work, and new ideas with a sense of community success), that's where the magic happens. Greed and laziness will always be a part of the mix, but do not need to be controlling factors. I find it ironic the Libertarian side (the side that has a stated goal of removing almost every socialistic component of our democracy) uses lies as their method of operation to convince the population that the Liberal side secretly wants a communistic State. It's because you know that it you were honest and told everyone that we would actually all be better off if our meat wasn't inspected, if the elderly had to buy health insurance on the open market, if we didn't really need fire codes, safety standards in the workplace, , or clean water and air, ..... you would get carried out of ton on a rail!

 

[Sniperchoke]

Hard work doesn't happen for community success. Hard work happens because of profits or greed as you say. Profits are the ultimate motivator for true entrepreneurial drive. Then when you have that capital success the surrounding community benefits. And your wrong again. The most dangerous element of socialism is mass murder and genocide.

 

[Possum]

Snipe you are wrong, mass murder and genocide happened under totalitarian dictatorships. This is just you and your kind trying to paint a picture of something that is not and create fear out of it. I am not going to drink that kool-aid.
You talk about profits, they are great, you are right that is what motivates us all. However, if I am going to benifit from an educated workforce, military to maintain stability, roads or infratstucture to help me move people or product to my business all at the expense of the taxpayer, I can only make more profits by getting people like you to convince people to lower my taxes so I can make more money. With me it is just wrong how corporations just want to freeload on the middle class. We all know the poor don't pay any taxes, some get back more than they pay in, rich or corporations have write-offs out the butt, lets not forget that they are immortal as well unless they are wallsreet who really just exist on paper. Then we have the middle class in America who pays the crap out of taxes and has people like snip and cheez fighting for the wallstreet guys.
IF I AM WRONG WHY DIDN'T CONGRESS SEND A BILL EXTENDING BUSH'S TAX CUTS TO AMERICANS WITH HOUSEHOLDS MAKING 250,000 OR LESS. YOU GUYS HAVE DONE NOTHING BUT DOG THE STIMULAS PACKAGE WHICH WAS A BIG PART TAX CUTS TO THE MIDDLE CLASS. Again snip, economic systems and governments are not the same. So just because the middle class wants to make life a little eaisier for the working class does not mean we want to round up the black folk, Jews, and Mexicans and kill them. Skin heads and Republicans in the KKK try to take care of that business.

 

[beetlespin]

I basically agree with Outcaster and possum here. In regards to the corporate writeoffs I would propose that we greatly simplify the tax system and eliminate write-offs all together. I actually like a lot of the ideas the debt commission has in regards to doing the same for personal taxes. Just set the tax rates and eliminate deductions, etc. We really shouldn't even have to fill out a tax return every year.

 

[Sniperchoke]

You guys are going to have to come to the realization that most if not all of the mass murders or geonocides of history are very close or stem from socialism. The reason being is that socialism causes class warfare. The intelligent and wealthy citizens are always the first casualties. This happened in the Great Socialist Revolution of Russia as well as the Nazi regime with the Jews.

 

[Possum]

Snip you are refering to the Zhar in Russia, if anyone spoke out about the the amount of money they were spending on linning their castles with gold while the public was starving, not only them but their families were killed. The Zhar was a ruthless totalitarian dictatorship. A ruling house if you will. The bolshelvics led by Stalin removed the family by killing everyone, except Anastasha if you believe the story. What the libertarian movement desire would eventually lead to what happened in Russia. Socialism is not what causes class warfare. What causes class warfair is the top 1% having all the wealth while the rest is starving. We are nowhere near that but you want to take us there and I am not having it. I love this country and the people in it. Spreading the wealth is not just a hand out. People that work hard in this country deserve their fair share. You corporate puppets will not stop until we are all slaves. By the way socialism does not cause class warfare, extreme greed or pure capitalism does. In Europe kids were thrown out because they could not be feed, mothers and daughters turned into prostitutes to just feed the family. Those are the family values you desire. Snip I am with Doc on this one.

By the way the reason the intellignet were the first to be killed is because you had to be rich to send your kids to school. If you keep the poor stupid, and the rich educated, the same people were always in control. I believe in a Democracy, freedom baby, let it ring. Next two years is going to be fun. We might not be the smartest nation on earth, but we give everyone a chance.

 

[Possum]

beetlespin - 11/28/2010 3:58 PM

I basically agree with Outcaster and possum here. In regards to the corporate writeoffs I would propose that we greatly simplify the tax system and eliminate write-offs all together. I actually like a lot of the ideas the debt commission has in regards to doing the same for personal taxes. Just set the tax rates and eliminate deductions, etc. We really shouldn't even have to fill out a tax return every year.

I love the write off system. It encourages people to spend money, which in return spreads the wealth and creates jobs. Reinvestment is what runs our economy. By spending money we are inadvertantly paying taxes. People just don't need to get to caught up in party politics. What is going on now has been going on for the last 30 years. You just cannot set the tax rates. Wish it was not, but much more complicated than that. However, thanks for agreeing with me.

 

[Sniperchoke]

In Russia women and children were not just thrown out they were murdered, raped, and exiled for not agreeing with the Socialist regime. Look, it has been proven the more capitalistic your society is the more prosperous and free you are.. You guys can not give me an example of one capitalistic gov't that has committed the atrocities that socialist gov't have. So history doesn't support your claims...

 

[spnplgr]

Ah, now you're beginning to talk my language. Can we all agree that there should be either a fair or flat tax (not much difference between the two)? No loop holes whatsoever. No tax forms to fill out other than possibly a post card sized return. We could also fire all but about 100 of the IRS staff. How much tax would Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, and Rockefeller pay then? I say they would pay THEIR FAIR SHARE just like the little guy.

Speaking of firing the IRS agents, we should also shut down the Federal Dept of Education. Education issues should be totally controlled at the state level with the Fed out of it all together. Then the state should run the school system as a business with a very savvy businessman in charge instead of an educator. Educators are trained to teach. They don't know jack about managing budgets worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Just look at the Hamilton county school system. They build fancy new schools worth millions of dollars because each school has to be designed by an architect instead of usng cookie cutter designs like Hardees and McDonalds. It could cost a fraction of current costs. How stupid!

As for any kind of socialism, it has never worked well, does not work well today and will not work well in the future. The early colonists tried community farming where everyone shared alike. By the second winter, they were starving. Their leader, William Bradford, split the land up and gave each family their own parcel to farm. After just one growing season, there was plenty of food because crop production had boomed due to PROPER INCENTIVE. That incentive was PROFIT. People respond to proper incentive and socialism never produced one iota of POSITIVE incentive. Even Michael Moore is unwilling to give up his for his dear cause of socialism. He wants to take yours, by force, to give to those who refuse to work or get an education so they can fend for themselves. It is disgusting.

 

[Guest]

outcaster - 11/26/2010 2:31 PM

cheez - 11/26/2010 1:22 PM

It is not a lie Danny. It is the truth no matter how many times you say it is a lie.

Really? Got any proof? Any verifiable data? Any secret communist meetings that you know about? Fact is, you don't. Until you can show me a "stated goal of USSR style communism by any current or past liberal thinking relevant politician, I'll call it a lie. Your type of political beliefs are based on fear, and nothing else. As I recall, past Liberal politicians stood up to the USSR and repelled the advance of communism. Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, and Carter all took serious steps to fight the advance of communism. Reagan was only too happy to take credit for their work. The USA has been the most successful Nation on the planet because of capitalism, checked by the rule of law, and socialistic policies where capitalism falls short. Instead of having a meaningful discussion about which side (social or capital) needs to solve a problem in our society, it's just much easier to paint the other side as followers of Stalin and Hitler.

I need no more proof than to watch the nightly news. The verifiable data is easy to see if you do not have liberal blinders on. The modern day communists of the US are disguising themselves as democrats because they know if they come straight out with the truth they will be rejected. Their (olbummer,pelosi and reid) brand of government IS a new and improved version of socialism or even communism. The spread "spread the wealth" comments made by your messiah are the proof. The way I see it the burden of proof lies with you to prove that they are NOT wanting a new style of socialism. Since the takeover in January of 2009 I have not seen even ONE part of the lives of the American citizen that the liberals did not want a hand in controling. Whether they made progress in doing so is irrelevant. They made proposals and had discussions. They were well on the way to making it happen. Sad thing for you is that thanks to people like Mr. Stossel and Mr. Williams and others these wolves in sheeps clothing have been exposed for what they really are. A few million Americans proved that on November 8.

 

[beetlespin]

Possum - 11/28/2010 8:31 PM

beetlespin - 11/28/2010 3:58 PM

I basically agree with Outcaster and possum here. In regards to the corporate writeoffs I would propose that we greatly simplify the tax system and eliminate write-offs all together. I actually like a lot of the ideas the debt commission has in regards to doing the same for personal taxes. Just set the tax rates and eliminate deductions, etc. We really shouldn't even have to fill out a tax return every year.

I love the write off system. It encourages people to spend money, which in return spreads the wealth and creates jobs. Reinvestment is what runs our economy. By spending money we are inadvertantly paying taxes. People just don't need to get to caught up in party politics. What is going on now has been going on for the last 30 years. You just cannot set the tax rates. Wish it was not, but much more complicated than that. However, thanks for agreeing with me.

Reinvestment should be driven by the need to reinvest - not some Government program to create false demand. This is where govt intervention has a negative effect on capitalism. Same with the housing bubble. Govt policies fueled housing demand by making money available to people who couldn't afford the houses they were buying. The entire credit crisis was driven by speculation. That crisis wasn't born until the govt fueled housing bubble was popped.

Institute a simple and fair tax policy and stop with all the partisan shenanigans.

 

[Guest]

All this fair tax/flat tax talk is but a pipe dream. I know it sounds good for us that pay the lions share BUT! As long as trial lawyers are in charge of the government there will never be any meaningful change. They lose too much power. Right or left.