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Your right, there is good way to make taxes truly fair. With our current system the rich think it's un-fair because they pay the most dollars. The poor think it's un-fair because a larger portion of income is spent on taxes. Please help me out here, is the "Fair Tax" a consuption based tax or a flat Tax? Another good rule of thumb to use here...... Who is supporting and pushing for it? The answer to that question will give some insight to who it will benefit the most. Like you said, taxes are not fair. But they are necessary. From what I have read there is not much love for the "fair tax" among the wealthiest Americans or the poor. So were right back to where we started. If the wealthy were for the "Fair Tax" plan it would have been enacted already. I think the wealthy are "tickled pink" with the tax structure just the way it is, and are fighting tooth and nail to keep it that way.

As far as what gov't should be paying for. That's a good topic. But the way things have become..... If we eliminated Everything from the Federal Budget, and just kept the Dept of Defense, and Social Security, we would still be in red numbers. So far no-one, Democrat or Republican, Conservative or Liberal has the political will or guts to tackle either one of those issues.
 
outcaster - 7/27/2010 9:55 PM

cheez - 7/27/2010 9:38 PM

outcaster - 7/27/2010 6:57 PM

cheez - 7/27/2010 2:21 PM

outcaster - 7/27/2010 1:43 PM
Listen to what Warren Buffett, the 3rd richest man in America has to say about tax rates and the rich.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5B-2LoC4s

Wow! I had no idea Warren Buffett was the third richest man in America.
How could this possibly be? Warren Buffett is a democrat. I have heard and read that all rich people were Republicans. Something is just not right here.

Came as quite a shock to me too! Turns out though, after a little research I learned that..... some Democrats are wealthy, some own a firearm and hunt and fish, some are veterans, some have a job and pay taxes, some have never actually been on Welfare, some even marry someone from the opposite sex, and some have been to church. ;)

SOME is the key word. Most definitely the exception rather than the rule. I figure they just have not been to enough democratic political rallies.

We're not very organized either. The only time we get to be in charge is when the Republicans screw up so bad no one will vote for them. Hey, next time your side gets into power don't screw up so bad and Democrats can go back to being just whiny liberals. lol

Could not have said it better myself. We have had the ability to make a big difference and get many things straightened out but we screw the dog.
 
outcaster - 7/28/2010 11:16 AM As far as what gov't should be paying for. That's a good topic. But the way things have become..... If we eliminated Everything from the Federal Budget, and just kept the Dept of Defense, and Social Security, we would still be in red numbers. So far no-one, Democrat or Republican, Conservative or Liberal has the political will or guts to tackle either one of those issues.
</p>

It takes intestinal fortitude to make the hard choices this country needs. I was listening to a news clip about a tax survey done recently. The numbers were pretty staggering. I cant remember the exact stats, but something in the neighborhood of 85% think taxes are too high. Then they were asked which programs that "they use", ie, social security, Welfare, food stamps, Medicare, national parks, roadways, etc, should be cut. Not programs they dont use mind you....the numbers showed virtually no-one would cut those programs. :( We want it all, and to hell with finding a real way to pay for it apparently. </p>
 
Outcaster: "The rich have been threatening to take their ball and go home for decades. History does not bear it out:"

Actually it does.

The luxury taxes in the 90's virtually destroyed the luxury boat building industry sending 25,000 American job overseas.

The rich took their ball and went home.

Sales of all affected luxury goods plummeted, bankruptcies soared. There are estimates of 300,000 total American jobs lost. The taxes generated about 16 million in revenue and cost the government about 24 million in lost revenue and unemployment payments from the affected workers.

The internet is full of info about the effect of the luxury tax and the behavior of the rich.

The luxury tax was so bad that Congressman Patrick Kennedy, the son of Ted Kennedy (who worked so hard with George Will to get the tax passed) proposed to reverse the tax and give luxury boat buyers 20% tax credits of up to 2 million dollars "per boat" to get the rich to bring their ball back.
 
SpurHunter - 7/28/2010 12:48 PM



outcaster - 7/28/2010 11:16 AM  As far as what gov't should be paying for. That's a good topic. But the way things have become..... If we eliminated Everything from the Federal Budget, and just kept the Dept of Defense, and Social Security, we would still be in red numbers. So far no-one, Democrat or Republican, Conservative or Liberal has the political will or guts to tackle either one of those issues.
</p>

It takes intestinal fortitude to make the hard choices this country needs. I was listening to a news clip about a tax survey done recently. The numbers were pretty staggering. I cant remember the exact stats, but something in the neighborhood of 85% think taxes are too high. Then they were asked which programs that "they use", ie, social security, Welfare, food stamps, Medicare, national parks, roadways, etc, should be cut. Not programs they dont use mind you....the numbers showed virtually no-one would cut those programs. :(  We want it all, and to hell with finding a real way to pay for it apparently. </p>

I'd say a real good place to start cutting would be the subsidized abortions. Next would be all overseas spending in countries that hate us. There are lots of places that money could be saved but the congressman or senator that got the earmark would throw a hissy fit.
 
Oh, and the newest news: Chelsea Clinton's wedding this weekend is expected to cost between $2-$3 MILLION! I can't believe that ANY self respecting, ultra liberal, Democrat would spend that kid of cash on a wedding instead of voluntarily giving to someone who has more needs, or even donating it to the US Gov't.

I'm sorry, but I don;t think I have heard a single good argument about why the rich should have to pay a higher percentage of their income to taxes or for other services because someone decides that they make too much money.

If I remember correctly Danny, the last time I saw you fishing at the nuke, you were in a pretty nice bass boat. Much nicer than my little alluminum John boat. Based on your arguments, I think you should be paying a higher price for the gas in your boat than me, and higher tx fees becasue you can afford it. While we're at it, maybe you should just give me a few rods and some boxes full of lures, that way we can be on move EQUAL footing as far as the fish are concerned. I mean, you have all of that becasue you have worked longer, and maybe harder than I have. You have had opportunities in life to get you were you are. I haven't made it yet, so you should share more of what you have with me since thus far, I have been less fortnate.

BTW, at least we can still cheer for the same Noles in a few weeks!
 
jtab81 - 7/28/2010 7:17 PM

Oh, and the newest news: Chelsea Clinton's wedding this weekend is expected to cost between $2-$3 MILLION! I can't believe that ANY self respecting, ultra liberal, Democrat would spend that kid of cash on a wedding instead of voluntarily giving to someone who has more needs, or even donating it to the US Gov't.

I'm sorry, but I don;t think I have heard a single good argument about why the rich should have to pay a higher percentage of their income to taxes or for other services because someone decides that they make too much money.

If I remember correctly Danny, the last time I saw you fishing at the nuke, you were in a pretty nice bass boat. Much nicer than my little alluminum John boat. Based on your arguments, I think you should be paying a higher price for the gas in your boat than me, and higher tx fees becasue you can afford it. While we're at it, maybe you should just give me a few rods and some boxes full of lures, that way we can be on move EQUAL footing as far as the fish are concerned. I mean, you have all of that becasue you have worked longer, and maybe harder than I have. You have had opportunities in life to get you were you are. I haven't made it yet, so you should share more of what you have with me since thus far, I have been less fortnate.

BTW, at least we can still cheer for the same Noles in a few weeks!

Bill is using the tax payers money to pay for Chelsea's wedding..... emoLaugh emoCool
 
personal responsablity...if you chose to fark off in school, and now have to flip burgers for 7.25 an hour, it is your own fault! How can you feel sorry for someone who just "gets by"? I know people that are rich, and some who are poor. How can poor people afford cigs and beer, when they should be paying their bills? Why should a doctor who spent a hundred thousand dollars(student loans) to get through school, be punsished? If Warren Buffet is so worried about the poor and his share of taxes, why doesn't he donate it all to the feds? I am tired of hearing about the people who "choose" to just get by. My wife works full time and goes to school, just like many Americans, yet some burger flipper who calls in sick once a week, demands to be cut a break! Democrats love the burger flippers, because they are uneducated, and can be manipulated easy....Used to be a time when hard work was rewarded, now it is looked down upon.
 
jtab81 - 7/28/2010 9:17 PM

Oh, and the newest news: Chelsea Clinton's wedding this weekend is expected to cost between $2-$3 MILLION! I can't believe that ANY self respecting, ultra liberal, Democrat would spend that kid of cash on a wedding instead of voluntarily giving to someone who has more needs, or even donating it to the US Gov't.

I'm sorry, but I don;t think I have heard a single good argument about why the rich should have to pay a higher percentage of their income to taxes or for other services because someone decides that they make too much money.

If I remember correctly Danny, the last time I saw you fishing at the nuke, you were in a pretty nice bass boat. Much nicer than my little alluminum John boat. Based on your arguments, I think you should be paying a higher price for the gas in your boat than me, and higher tx fees becasue you can afford it. While we're at it, maybe you should just give me a few rods and some boxes full of lures, that way we can be on move EQUAL footing as far as the fish are concerned. I mean, you have all of that becasue you have worked longer, and maybe harder than I have. You have had opportunities in life to get you were you are. I haven't made it yet, so you should share more of what you have with me since thus far, I have been less fortnate.

BTW, at least we can still cheer for the same Noles in a few weeks!

If what you're saying is true.... even though we pay the same rates for most taxes and fees, MY fed income tax rate is higher, yet you're the one complaining about it, not me. Actually the bass boat is 14 years old, and flies down the lake at 40mph on its best day, and is pulled by a 1998 ford explorer. But that is my decision. I could have something a lot nicer if it were not for those pesky kids wanting to go to college. And I don't mind one bit asking the wealthiest 3% to chip in a little more.
 
outcaster - 7/31/2010 2:14 PM

If what you're saying is true.... even though we pay the same rates for most taxes and fees, MY fed income tax rate is higher, yet you're the one complaining about it, not me. Actually the bass boat is 14 years old, and flies down the lake at 40mph on its best day, and is pulled by a 1998 ford explorer. But that is my decision. I could have something a lot nicer if it were not for those pesky kids wanting to go to college. And I don't mind one bit asking the wealthiest 3% to chip in a little more.

Ah Ha, you noticed. You're right. YOUR tax bracket is probably higher than mine. My wife and I work hard and have good jobs. We are well off by many people's standards, but by no means rich. The reason I care about it is two fold:
1st, its plain not fair that someone should pay a higher percentage of their income becasue they make more than the next guy. I don;t care if he is a Democrat, Republican, gay or straight, white or black. It's not right to punish anyone becasue of their personal success. Just because it doesn't affect me now, doesn't mean that I can't feel strongly about a wrong. This is a big problem with so many people's opinion on this topic: they look at it from the point of "What's In it For me RIGHT NOW". If you can't look past this view, then something is wrong.America is the land of opportunity. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be so full of 1st generation immigrants who have educated themselves and become extremely successful. All while a large section of 3rd- 10th generation American's think they have been oppresed, and that all the successful people are there because their families handed it all to them.

I'm tired of people standing up for those who WON'T go get an education, sacrifice some of the things they have, and put some effort into getting ahead HONESTLY.

My family left behind everything they had in Cuba to escape Oppression of the successful by Fidel Castro and his Communist cronies. They started over in America, and have many times over rebuilt their businesses and their family's future. (don't take this to mean that I am some spoon in the mouth guy who has had success handed down from his family- I'm far from it- with the exception of my view on the world and my work ethic.)

What has happened in Cuba? Yup, everyone is equal now. Equally POOR! Every person with a brain, morals and an education has left to pursue life in countries which value hard work and prosperity, mainly AMERICA.

2nd- One day, I do hope to be a successful business owner making a great living for my family so that we may help others and live comfortably. I do not want someone coming to me and saying that I need to contribute more of my income to a government whose job has become to take care of those who haven't taken care of themselves. If they can't, that is one thing. If they WON'T, that is something else entirely and a subject of another thread.

BTW- When I said "nice bass boat" I was meaning that it was nicer than mine.
 
I'm a little confused? Would you rather pay the same federal income tax rate as the rich guys? I'm sure some arrangements can be made for you lol. Put your money where your mouth is..... call up the IRS on Monday and tell then how un-fair you think it is that you are paying less in federal income taxes than someone making a quarter million dollars. Then ask them to please put you in the higher tax bracket with them....... Then I will be more inclined to accept your argument on tax rates. We really have to get over this notion that All people that are poor, or "less" successful" are that way because they are lazy, and stupid, just as ALL that are rich, are that way because they have worked harder and are smarter. I don't really know you, but I highly doubt that you are lazy or stupid, even if you NEVER become wealthy.
 
Maybe we should let rich people vote twice since they pay the bills. Wanna hear something funny? Someone making $250k a year will pay more taxes that someone making 50k a year even makes. Its really BS. Penalizing someone just for being successful just doesn't seem right. Making 250k a year is a hell of an accomplishment. I don't make near that but I work my a$$ off to make what I feel like is pretty good money. People who make that kind of money live for work. They work long hours, go to bed thinking or worrying about work, think about work in their spare time, etc... So yes they make more $$ but they earn it! Not sure why you think its fair to penalize that...
 
beetlespin - 7/31/2010 5:52 PM

Maybe we should let rich people vote twice since they pay the bills. Wanna hear something funny? Someone making $250k a year will pay more taxes that someone making 50k a year even makes. Its really BS. Penalizing someone just for being successful just doesn't seem right. Making 250k a year is a hell of an accomplishment. I don't make near that but I work my a$$ off to make what I feel like is pretty good money. People who make that kind of money live for work. They work long hours, go to bed thinking or worrying about work, think about work in their spare time, etc... So yes they make more $$ but they earn it! Not sure why you think its fair to penalize that...

emoThumbsup
 
They already have their own lobby brigade.....and now are unlimited in how much they can contribute to a political campaign. That's almost like having 2 votes. What's better.....they even have people the don't have 2 nickles to rub together lobbying for them. emoScratch
 
outcaster - 7/31/2010 5:35 PM

I'm a little confused? Would you rather pay the same federal income tax rate as the rich guys? I'm sure some arrangements can be made for you lol. Put your money where your mouth is..... call up the IRS on Monday and tell then how un-fair you think it is that you are paying less in federal income taxes than someone making a quarter million dollars. Then ask them to please put you in the higher tax bracket with them....... Then I will be more inclined to accept your argument on tax rates. We really have to get over this notion that All people that are poor, or "less" successful" are that way because they are lazy, and stupid, just as ALL that are rich, are that way because they have worked harder and are smarter. I don't really know you, but I highly doubt that you are lazy or stupid, even if you NEVER become wealthy.

You must not have read my whole post above. I said that I DON'T want to pay more taxes. And I DON"T want that person making more than me to have to pay more. No where have I said that I want lower income people to pay the same rate that high earners pay.

What I WOULD like to see though, is a consumption tax. This way everyone who consumes ABOVE the poverty level, would pay taxes based on what they SPEND, not what they MAKE. If you are a high income earner, but responsible with your money and save or invest it, you pay less in taxes.
 
That still does not solve your problem with the wealthiest guys paying More of their money in taxes. They will be paying MORE than are now under the current system. It would also get rid of all the tax loopholes they now use, leaving them with only one option to reduce their tax bill......STOP SPENDING. Why do you think the Forbes 400 are not jumping up and down demanding that the system to be changed? Answer..... They like it just the way it is!

Guys like you and me spend based on what we NEED, not what we WANT. I could afford to buy the big Ranger bass rig and a Toyota Tundra extended cab truck to pull it with. If I did that..... I would have NO money left to send my kids to college, or fund my IRA and 401K.... and I would be divorced. The difference between guys like me and you, and the to 3% guys..... After they buy what they NEED (food, transportation, shelter and clothing), they have a whole lot more money than you and I left over to buy what they WANT. So...under this new tax system.... are they gonna sit on that money or spend it? My bet is, they sit on it to avoid paying taxes. That's where "Trickle down economics" will really affect this Nation.
 
beetlespin - 7/31/2010 4:52 PM
Someone making $250k a year will pay more taxes that someone making 50k a year even makes. Its really BS.

Hmm, while that is true lets bump the numbers up just a hair, and compare the effective tax rate at 60k to 300k. In that case the 60k is paying a larger percentage of their income than the 300k. The spread gets even greater when you start considering all the write-offs that the 300k person can take advantage of.
 
Bfish - 8/1/2010 12:00 PM

beetlespin - 7/31/2010 4:52 PM
Someone making $250k a year will pay more taxes that someone making 50k a year even makes. Its really BS.

Hmm, while that is true lets bump the numbers up just a hair, and compare the effective tax rate at 60k to 300k. In that case the 60k is paying a larger percentage of their income than the 300k. The spread gets even greater when you start considering all the write-offs that the 300k person can take advantage of.

I just checked the income tax rates from IRS.com a person making 300 k will pay somewhere in the neighborhood of 39% income tax rate and the person making 60k pays somewhere in the neighborhood of 18% tax rate. So I don't know where you are getting your #'s. In real dollars the individual making 300k will pay $117,472.50 in taxes the person making 60K will pay $11,194.00. Now who diserves a tax break? By the way you don't have to be rich to take advantage of a write off. As I have said before a paper boy can write off his vehicle, gas, mileage, repairs, etc, etc...
 

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