Dan Cook's article in Sunday's paper. 9-9-07

[drumking]

This is a quote from Dr Phil Pettoli on mortality studies for TX bass fishing. "This is what everyone who studies fish understands: When it's hot, July or August, in Tennessee, that's hot. Two out of three will be dead within two weeks after release. That's actually not noteworthy: Biologists who have studied this for years have come up with that same conclusion."

If this is true, then why in the world would bassfishermen hold a tx in those months? That is a 67% mortality rate for the bass. How many bass are caught in all the dogfights that are around here on Chickamauga? There is one nearly every night. The only conclusion that I can come up with and you are going to hate it when I say it....no I won't say it, but you all know what the motivation for this is.

If this is true, wouldn't it make sense to not put on a tournament if the water temp reaches a certain degree, and I don't know what that temp would be?

Catching a bass in July/Aug and immediately releasing him will still have some mortality rate, depending on how long it is out of the water for pics, weights, measurements, etc. But surely it won't approach 67%. I don't fish for bass anymore per se, but I am still interested in our lakes and fisheries. Rsimms may chime in and say that we can't impact the overall fishery by catch and release even if it is a tournament and he may be right. Just thought I'd pass this along for some consideration and input from the bass fishermen on this site. emoGeezer

 

[rsimms]

Of course I'll chime in DK... you know me. emoBigsmile It has been proven in numerous studies that summertime catch-and-release mortality rates are huge... studies indicate that even with the best of care July and August survival rates around here are well under 50%. Sure fish will swim away, but they have suffered incredible stress. And in the dog-eat-dog (or fish-eat-fish) outdoor world, bass that have been stressed have a hard time surviving. It is easy for us to ignore because we rarely see those fish floating. The fact is, when a bass gets stressed and weakened to the point of near death, other things start eating on them in a hurry. So ... out-of-sight, out-of-mind. More info HERE.

Now one must ask, "So what?"

Nearly every bass angler these days lives in a "catch-and-release" mentality. However, biologists live in a very different world... they live in a "what can the resource sustain" mentality.

Biologists set creel limits based upon what the resource can sustain, which means according to the biologists, every single bass angler could take home every legal bass and put them in the freezer (or the garbage can) and it would have no appreciable impact on the resource. Remember that natural mortality is going to take its toll regardless of anglers and the limits are set so that anglers are simply taking the "excess" fish or animals that are likely to succumb anyway.

Obviously most bass anglers these days don't believe it and it has become taboo to keep a bass. But the biologists say it really doesn't matter that much. If they thought the same way as most bass anglers, the creel limit would be "zero."

So DK, look at it this way... even if 60% of all summertime tournament-caught fish die, according to the biologists you should consider the 40% that do survive "a bonus."

 

[SpurHunter]

Another reason for me to never fish a bass TX. Great input from both of our resident conservation watchers...

 

[drumking]

Richard, this is what I thought was the answer. So it really doesn't make any difference whether the bass are kept or released in a tournament. Perhaps some more thought should go into keeping the tx caught bass and at least eating them or giving them to a needy family. Let's feed the hungry kids. Mine! emoBigsmile If I ever do catch a bass while I'm fishing for other things, I'm gonna keep it for the table unless it is a smallmouth. Those things are just so beautiful, magnificant creatures, that I just have to let them go. (In most cases.)emoBigsmile emoGeezer
Eat more spots!

 

[Fishin Fool]

I was wondering if this subject would come back up after we discussed it last time. Two points I'll make:

1. What can the resources sustain? The sheer number of tournaments are increasing constantly. As DK said, we are having 1 at least every night or morning on the lake, sometimes many more than that. At what point does it become a wasteful slaughter of fish? Why on earth have we attached the idea of winning money to fishing???? There are some really great guys that TX fish but they mostly put their head in the sand when it comes to articles like this. TOURNAMENTS ARE KILLING FISH and it's getting worse instead of better. Ask yourself how many of these fish would survive if they were caught, unhooked and placed back in the water immediately instead of carried around, placed in a bag, poured into a basket, weighed, photographed, shown off and so on. I don't take many pics of fish because honestly I HATE having them out of the water that long. These types of observations are not attacks on TX fishermen but it is a wake up call. Sometimes looking at an activity that you consider fun but is destructive is hard to do.

2. Fish mortality is something we should all be concerned with, and not just be thankful of the 40% of so that survive after a TX. I'm talking ALL fish. What would our fishery be like if we had a one year moratorium on TXs on the Chick? TX fishermen are good sportsmen by and large but cash and competition is making a huge dent in the fish population for everyone, not to mention sportsmanship on the water. Why does TWRA and major bass clubs support catch and release??? If it doesn't matter how many die then why should we care if they are being killed in a TX or taken home to be eaten? Bass SINK when they die for the most part and we never know how many die. I've made this point before as has DK and other members of the forum. This TX thing is getting crazy day by day.

 

[MrWiskers]

One thing I have learned fishing the Riverpark is the best angler in the world only catchs a very small percentage of the bass in spot. The sheer number of fish in the river is unreal. If you don't believe me go bow fishing one night and see what actually lives in the water. It will really open your eyes to the unbelivable bio-mass of fish.

I would also guess the mortality rate increases with fish age. This would correspond to the larger the bass, the more likely it will die due to stress, etc. I kept aquarium fish for years and the older fish, like people, were more likely to get infections, bloat, flukes, etc. The one thing most people don't realize is there are a lot of things in the water waiting to eat a bass at all times. Remove some slime coat, add some stress and fungus, bacteria, flukes etc are going to attack the fish. Also remember fish sink when they die if they are not bloated from being caught deep. Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they are alive. Also I have seen turtles eat a 3lb largemoth on a stringer in 8 hours or less. Head and all.

How about crappie fishing. Crappie have very soft mouths and I am sure a large percentage get their mouth tore to pieces during catch and release. This just opens the fish up to eating problems and the potential for disease. Should you stop crappie fishing when you get 15" fish?

The next question is does the tournment fisherman act to thin the herd. I think a lot of people think the river/lake can keep a unlimed amount of fish alive. Not so. Too many LM is too many and we will end up with stunted fish. Probably would not happen in a river system but it does happen in small ponds and lakes. My understanding is limits come in two forms: slot and minumum length. Each is based on how well the fish reproduce. My question is should we have a slot limit on Chick say from 12-18" with only one fish over say 18"? Not sure but there are many more 15" bass in the river than 22" fish. This would keep 5 4lbers from being rode all over the lake for 8 hours. I like the idea of 3 fish limit for tournments. Partially because I cannot usually catch 5 keepers but it keeper this kill rate down.

People are going to fish year around so take them home and eat them. If you don't the turtles will.

One last thing. The catch and release mortality applies to all fish in the summer. How many 20, 30, 40 lb blue cats caugth from 50-60 feet of water, wresled on a boat for 10 minutes, get their slime rubbed off on a hot boat survive? Not many would be my guess. The sheer temperature shock alone going from 55-60 degree water to 90 degree water probably does them in. Just making a point the this is not a bass fisherman issue, it applies to everyone.

 

[foodsaver]

mr wiskers I was just thinking the same thing. I wonder if there are any studies about the mortality on those huge catfish?

 

[Fishin Fool]

All the points are well taken and presented but we must remember this is not about catch and release; this is about catch, hold in a tank for hours with low oxygen levels, take pics, weigh in, hold out of the water to brag about and then eventually return to the water in a TX. That is NOT catch and release.

Catch and release obviously works to a GREAT extent or we would not have size limits, we'd just have a creel limit and a catch and keep rule. Like was said earlier, you'd just stop fishing once you caught the creel limit. Why not if the VAST majority are going to die, which I can assure you in my opinion they won't? The reason is very simple; catch and release IMMEDIATELY works.

Plus who decides that the "herd needs thinning"? Does that mean for example that if we have 2 million bass (just an example) in the chick that we need to thin them? What if the chick would support 4 million?? 5 million? I understand about bodies of water and keeping a healthy population but I also know you can fish a body of water to death also. I've seen ponds that were brimming with nice fish be destroyed in a few years time with unrestrained fishing. You can abuse any resource. Plus how many, say, 5 lb fish do we need in the chick? How many do we have? Is it good thinking to assume they would die anyway and that we might as well eat them if we happen to catch them? If not then what is different from taking them in a tourney if 60% are going to die? If we follow this way of thinking to a conclusion then we might was well eat everything we catch because it is not going to live anyway! I'm sure that catching a fish and letting it go stresses it somewhat but I'd say that a very small percentage die. In a tournament that is a totally different thing with totally different factors.

What if 5 lb bass made up 1% of the population and we could change that to 5%? Would that be a good thing? Would that increase the average anglers chance to catch a bigger fish? It sure has worked for catfish hasn't it? We now have a trophy cat reputation. But then again, catfish TXs are not common at all and as I recall, the last one CFF did was a catch, photograph and release.

Look at it this way, if a TX has 25 boats and all weigh in a limit of 5 fish, that is 125 fish, of which, according to this study, about 80 of the fish will die. If these same guys were just out fishing for fun instead of cash, the vast majority of the fish would survive. Plus you have to factor in the cull factor; these are the BEST fish these 25 boats can find. So you have catch and release loss of the culls, PLUS the TX loss. Now multiply that by the number of TXs on the lake on a given week. Impact? Maybe minor, maybe major, but the question is, why chance it if you dont have to?

If we really want to help the fishery have spotted bass tourneys. Keep only the spots for weigh in and leave the largemouth alone. The eat the spots or give them away to be eaten. BTW, I think Mr Wiskers suggestion about slot limits and a 3 fish bag are good ones too. Any beginning is just that; a START on addressing an issue.

 

[dunk]

i agree with most of you on the hot summer months probably should be off limits. i do however believe,that the fishing pressure has way more to do with mortality than tourneys. yrs ago grass around here was a big tournament draw we had as many or more tournaments then as now. as for the dogfights your talking about a three to four hr. tourney where most folks dont run that far dont cull that often and fish are released fairly quickly. also i would like to see maximum eight hr. tourneys which most are but this increases survival rates. weather, forage and water levels also have effects on fish . yeah , we need to protect our resources for our children and grandchildren,but look at the tounament results for the last 10 yrs. and tell me the chick has not made a huge comeback 10000 tournaments and all. hope i did not step on toes,just my opinion.(and i think its probably worth less than 1/2 cent.

 

[Fat Albert]

<font color="#ff0066">This is the very subject matter that me and the Madbomber discussed with Bill Reeves outside the conf. room at the last commish meeting a couple of weeks ago....and they have the proof about the mortality rates....I think during the hot months there should not be any Tx.  With that said I know it will tic many folks off but that is the way I feel...When the water cools it get better and the survival rate increases.  I know that MB will have something to say on this subject.. It was a good article by Dan.....</font>

 

[hl&s]

Many bass tx anglers have become aware of the new mortality studies concerning the hotter months and, in addition to the recirculation pump, have installed pro air systems, use rejuvenate, cool livewell water with ice, and use aerated black weigh bags to transport the fish. When better solutions become available, most conscientious bass tx anglers will invest in them.

I've never fished a tx where every boat brought in a 5 fish limit. The B.I.T.E. reports that TWRA has available gives statistics for bass caught in participating tx's and could be used as a starting point to gauge the actual amount of fish caught in bass tx's around our area. There's also recommendations on how to care for bass in the livewell. From the reports on CFF, July and August seem to be the time of year the least amount of bass are caught.

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/fish/bite/bite.html

Other than making sure I pass the info on to other tx anglers when I can, I'm gonna leave it to the experts. I'm sure they will adjust fishing regulations as the situation requires, bass, crappie, catfish, etc..

Just my $.02

 

[Rivermont Jeff]

Every fish I've hooked deep and killed has always flopped on the surface for a while then died and never have I every seen one sink to the bottom. Any tx I've fished if there were a fish that was boarderline dead it's always floated never sank. Come back the next day and you will see the dead ones floating. My fishing partner and I have transported bass from Guntersville to ringgold after fishing 8 hours air temp in the 80's and released them in a pond and rarely ever lost a fish. As far as studies go we've probably transported 100 bass and lost maybe 4% nowhere even remotely close to 65%. If that were the case there would be fish floating dead all over the ramp areas, seeing how every fish I've seen die in a tx or transported and released always floats. I agree turtles eat bass but there not going to eat 65 fish that die after a tx. and out of that 65% if they did sink (which I think that is completely wrong)I believe the majority would float. like the shad die off a nickajack a while back. they floated right? The mortality rate that I've seen in my lifetime would be around 3-4%. I think tx fishermen are more aware of the bass' health than anyone on the lake, because to them it could mean the difference between winning and losing. And if your not first your last.emoSmile
JTodd

 

[Ram Jack Scott]

from what rsimms said as well as the biologists....all the tx's going on, are in one way or another helping, not hurting our fishery if you take into account the creel limits. i for one have never kept a fish to eat..........except for the cracker fest and i just cleanedemoVomit . now that i think about it when i'm at river park i will give my spaats and a LM or two to the guys that want to take them home and eat them. either way you look at it the lake looks to be doing VERY good, excluding cruisers, jet skis, and ski boats pulling people after darkemoTongue emoTongue .......... why on earth have we attached winning money with fishing?????? someone asked that question.....i can't remember whoemoPoke . sounds like a beautiful thing to me. the way i see it your gonna make the money, donate the money or wonder why someone would do such a thing. emoScratch i just like the thought of donating to a sport i love so much. as far as i'm concerned shinner fishing is just as bad on our fishery as the tx's. how many of those fish do you suppose live after you rip that hook out of their stomach or what ever that thing is that the hook always gets caught in?????? i'm sure it's not so good. by the way i'm not knocking the shinner fishermen. anyway as far as the high mortality rate in the hot summer months is concerned. hopefully people will do their best to take care of the fish in their livewells and then some. that's my 0.005 centsemoTongue

 

[Rivermont Jeff]

I believe tx fishermen are some of the most knowledgable fishermen there are because they put the most time in and learn the how's,when's and where's to catch fish. They may not share a whole lot of info on a public forum because of reasons discussed on different posts. But it's posts like this that discourage tx fishing and therefore keeps alot of those knowledgable minds away from posting fishing reportsemoSmile And there again those guys care more for bass than anyone.There is money wagered on any sport and any thing. If you don't believe me wanna bet?emoPoke Thanks
JTodd

 

[hedbussuh]

I agree with the last two comments somewhat. I do not see there possibly being a mortality rate that high. Sounds like propaganda to me. I do not like to fish deep in the summer myself, but do from time to time. I think that most mortality comes from deep-caught fish. When a bass dies before or at weigh-ins, it always floats. So thus you can assume that these "other" bass (80%) which do not die immediately must swim away to another part of the lake, then be eaten by either a turtle or large catfish before it can float to the top. What do I know? I haven't conducted the studies. I just know that the 80 % mortality figure cant be true. Not even 20 %. There wouldn't be any bass left after just a few years of TX. Some of the lakes which have been pounded by Tx in the past few years are better fisheries than ever. Some appear to be not doing as well. It is all just part of the natural cycle that all bodies of water will go through. I do think that the wildcat Tx have gotten out of hand. I am also in favor of limiting Summer tx to a much smaller #. And, I believe that their should be a permit application process thru local resources management to conduct a fishing tournament of any type , anywhere in order to control the # of Tx. Many lakes in the North do not allow bass fishing during the spawn. Maybe the South needs to limit its Tx in the Summer. I could handle that. But the 80% die-off is BS.

 

[fishinvol]

I myself do fish a few small tournaments/dogfights during the summer, but I really wish there was a way to cut down on all the tournaments on Chickamauga. I mean there is 2 or 3 going almost everyday of the week, not to mention the bigger ones on the weekends. Now I do realize the bass have been doing well in Chickamauga and seem to be getting better. Now cut the pressure on them in half and could you imagine what there could be!! I am no scientist, and I'm definately no pro angler, but I care alot about the fish in the lakes, and I just would really like to improve Chickamauga to get it back to what it was or better 20 years ago. If that takes cutting way down on the tournaments, then i am for it. Just my opinion.emoThumbsup

 

[fish4thepeck]

I still believe targeting females during the spawn has a much larger impact on the mortality rate of bass. BASS and flw schedules most of their tx's during that particular lakes spawn. Most people would agree fish are easier to catch during the spawn. Fishing is big business and I don't see this changing anytime soon.Some recommendations, I think Weighing in the limit during a tx could be reduced to 3 fish or even less during the spawn and summer months. I would also take a long look at sight fishing. I agree with Mr. Simms in that our resources for now are in pretty good shape. I have been bass fishing over forty years and with the improved technology, faster boats, more pressure, one would think limits would become scarce but go to any tx and the limits keep pouring in. We all want our kids to have the opportunity enjoy our resources down the road and soon some decisions will have to be made. I hope they don't take too long.

 

[Fishin Fool]

fishinvol - 9/10/2007 11:15 PM

I myself do fish a few small tournaments/dogfights during the summer, but I really wish there was a way to cut down on all the tournaments on Chickamauga. I mean there is 2 or 3 going almost everyday of the week, not to mention the bigger ones on the weekends. Now I do realize the bass have been doing well in Chickamauga and seem to be getting better. Now cut the pressure on them in half and could you imagine what there could be!! I am no scientist, and I'm definately no pro angler, but I care alot about the fish in the lakes, and I just would really like to improve Chickamauga to get it back to what it was or better 20 years ago. If that takes cutting way down on the tournaments, then i am for it. Just my opinion.emoThumbsup

emoThumbsup emoThumbsup emoThumbsup

 

[Buoy-Master]

What did killing off all the grass do in the 80s? Not changing gears, just want to know how that effected the bass in our lake. I wasnt fishing then...too busy chasing girls.

</p>

 

[fishinvol]

The bass fishing went from being very close to world class, to darn near nothing in a very short time!! It has really come back strong in the recent years.