I did not read every post but I plan too. Some counter points to a few that I feel like I need to address.
rsimms - 9/9/2007 10:51 AM
...Nearly every bass angler these days lives in a "catch-and-release" mentality. However, biologists live in a very different world... they live in a "what can the resource sustain" mentality.
Biologists set creel limits based upon what the resource can sustain, which means according to the biologists, every single bass angler could take home every legal bass and put them in the freezer (or the garbage can) and it would have no appreciable impact on the resource. Remember that natural mortality is going to take its toll regardless of anglers and the limits are set so that anglers are simply taking the "excess" fish or animals that are likely to succumb anyway....
Rsimms, Maximum Sustain Yield is no longer a biologist sole management goal. With the advent of modeling (past 15 or so years) it has become managers position to maximize quality fish. Why max quality-size fish?, because survey after survey show that anglers (especially bass anglers) support catching fewer fish if they have greater odds at catching a quality/trophy fish. Modeling takes into account the catch and release aspect (and the lack of c and r too).
MrWiskers - 9/9/2007 1:09 PM
...I would also guess the mortality rate increases with fish age....
…Also remember fish sink when they die..
…The next question is does the tournment fisherman act to thin the herd. I think a lot of people think the river/lake can keep a unlimed amount of fish alive. Not so. Too many LM is too many and we will end up with stunted fish. Probably would not happen in a river system but it does happen in small ponds and lakes…
…The catch and release mortality applies to all fish in the summer. How many 20, 30, 40 lb blue cats caugth from 50-60 feet of water, wresled on a boat for 10 minutes, get their slime rubbed off on a hot boat survive? Not many would be my guess. The sheer temperature shock alone going from 55-60 degree water to 90 degree water probably does them in. Just making a point the this is not a bass fisherman issue, it applies to everyone…
Actually the highest mortality is until they reach age-1 (through there first winter), after that natural mortality remains fairly constant until they start to reach “max” size, then as you mentioned the natural mortality (and the effects of fishing mortality) begin to take a toll. When that “max” size point varies, it could be 4.5 lbs on some lakes and 6 on others.
Good point on fish sinking, very few float.
When you “thin” you typically cull from the middle to small size animals; mortality from tx seems to affect larger fish more than the typical cull for smaller than average fish. I don’t think Chickamauga could ever stunt out, just too much water.
IMO, catfish are much tougher and can tolerate much greater water temperature changes, however handling mortality should still be a concern.
hl&s - 9/10/2007 8:03 PM
Many bass tx anglers have become aware of the new mortality studies concerning the hotter months and, in addition to the recirculation pump, have installed pro air systems, use rejuvenate, cool livewell water with ice, and use aerated black weigh bags to transport the fish. When better solutions become available, most conscientious bass tx anglers will invest in them.
I've never fished a tx where every boat brought in a 5 fish limit. The B.I.T.E. reports that TWRA has available gives statistics for bass caught in participating tx's and could be used as a starting point to gauge the actual amount of fish caught in bass tx's around our area….
…Other than making sure I pass the info on to other tx anglers when I can, I'm gonna leave it to the experts. I'm sure they will adjust fishing regulations as the situation requires, bass, crappie, catfish, etc..
Ice (if it changes the water temp by more than 2-3 degrees) can be harmful, as can overuse of the rejuvenate/salts/other chemicals. Too often people know a little is good, so they assume a lot is better.
The BITE data is only as good as what is turned in. It would be great if all tx returned info. In other states it has been found that some tx will not turn in a report if the tx had poor results (low fish numbers), other tx will inflate the numbers caught and other screwball things as tx directors try to fudge the data in order to “force” the biologist to take action (in one form or another). It is important that those numbers be accurate to be of any use to the biologist.
Yeah, leave it to the experts is the best thing, as they know there job and most are willing to take a critical look at the results to double check themselves too. It is also important to lobby for good Commissioners who will support the biologist recommendations. To often we (fishermen) and Commissioners try to make armchair qb decisions when the trained biologist know what is going on a whole heck of a lot better.
Rivermont Jeff - 9/10/2007 9:36 PM
… Any tx I've fished if there were a fish that was boarderline dead it's always floated never sank. Come back the next day and you will see the dead ones floating….
…seeing how every fish I've seen die in a tx or transported and released always floats.
Did you scuba dive and look for dead fish underwater? Did you revisit the area for up to two weeks? Occasionally dead fish will float, but the majority (especially those that die from bacteria infections and viruses tend to sink. You might have only seen the 3-4% died and floated.
hedbussuh - 9/10/2007 10:18 PM
…I do not see there possibly being a mortality rate that high. Sounds like propaganda to me….
I haven't conducted the studies. I just know that the 80 % mortality figure cant be true. Not even 20 %. There wouldn't be any bass left after just a few years of TX. Some of the lakes which have been pounded by Tx in the past few years are better fisheries than ever. Some appear to be not doing as well. It is all just part of the natural cycle that all bodies of water will go through.
Propaganda, haha, I guess you should bury your head in the sand like an ostrich (I am being a devil). I guess a peer reviewed scientifically research paper is not enough “truth” for you. 80% of a couple million still leaves lots of fish. Some reservoirs have gotten better through Clean Water Act, better management of flows through dams, habitat improvements. Also mother nature (specifically weather) plays a big role on the strength of the spawn on most reservoirs and fish populations due tend to cycle with the weather, however, fishing is not a “natural” component of the ecosystem and neither is a dam.
BBass - 9/11/2007 7:31 AM
What did killing off all the grass do in the 80s? Not changing gears, just want to know how that effected the bass in our lake.
I am probable going to get crucified on this board for saying this, but it actually improved the fishery. Let me try to briefly explain. During that time frame (80’s) Chickamauga area experienced a multi-year drought. TVA held back water in Chick, which provided several great years of spawning. As those fish got larger weeds became prevalent. Fisherman found it easy to find bass, because they were in the weeds. All the fish were large. About the same time as the weeds started to be sprayed, you started having poorer spawns (and poor water quality (DO) from the multiple years of drought) and the bigger older fished started dieing off from old age. Fisherman blamed the spraying.
Grass is great for growing lots of small bass, it also concentrates fish to make it easy to find a place to fish. If one takes a look at the size structure of the populations from a then and now scenario, you would find that back in the grass years you had lots of fish, most of them small, but in the now scenario you have quite a few fish (not quite as many as grass years though) but the average is size is much larger. In the now period, it is harder for fisherman to target the larger avg size fish, because they tend to roam all over instead of being isolated on grass points. A good resource on this discussion is probably contained in (been awhile since I read it): Hoffman, K. and P.W. Bettoli. 2005. The fate of largemouth bass marked with oxytetracycline and stocked into Chickamauga Lake, Tennessee. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 25:1518-1527.
fishinvol - 9/11/2007 7:41 AM
The bass fishing went from being very close to world class, to darn near nothing in a very short time!! It has really come back strong in the recent years.
See my above answer.
All right flame away on me. Hehe.
minner - 9/11/2007 9:22 AM
There can never be a true fish population count without draining a lake, and shock surveys have minimum results, especially in deeper lakes.
I agree with many of the above statements. I agree in part with Richard in that the DNR sets limits to maintain "populations" based on surveyed fish numbers and the ever increasing numbers of fishermen. Creel limits are set so that little to no impact would be felt if everyone kept their creel. Tournament or weekend fishermen, it doesn't matter, 95% of us fishermen would be fishing every weekend whether tournaments were outlawed or not, so IMO tournaments don't have that much of an effect on populations. Fish will be caught no matter the motive.
As MrWhiskers said there can only be so many fish in the ecosystem, if you don't take a few out nature WILL. There are 100's of diseases that effect bass, just look up Largemouth Bass Virus if you don't believe me. Over population=disease.
Draining a lake still doesn’t give you a “true” populations, and scientist realize that; they are continually research to find more accurate answers, one of the reason statistics is so important.
As far as creel limits being set so that the managers assume that all fish are being harvested, is just not true in the day and age. The managers are way to model savvy not to factor in c and r fishing. IMO tx due have a greater impact, mainly because they are not a catch and immediate release, but catch, livewell, and release. No doubt about it, the livewell does add additional stress. Is that extra stress from the livewell significant, is not for me to decided but for the biologist and managers to decided.
I highly doubt that Chick could every become over populated, just to large of system with too many check and balances. Also LBV was first discovered by tx fisherman, and is most prevalent in reservoirs that have tx action. Viruses usually attach when fish are stressed, either from poor handling or from over population (although the response to over population is typically stunting not LBV).
Just my 0.02 cents (actually more like a buck fifty, hehe).
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