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I pay whatever the max is for medicare is every year. We all pay if for the 40 years we have to work. I just wonder if we would all be better off without any health insurance sometimes. I bet people would make better choices about their health. I also bet medical visits would be cheaper. Who knows? I will say that I totally disagree with this government healthcare program though. It will just be a handout to one group and a higher tax burden for another group. Doesn't really sound fair to me.

On another note why don't we go to a flat tax system? Everybody pays the exact same percentage every week. With the exception of self employed people you could eliminate this tax filing crap every year. That's just a big, inefficient, waste of time if you think about it. Get rid of all these silly deductions and exemptions. Would be so simple.
 
Just my .02 cents...I don't know how ya'll feel but I'm sick and tired of working my arse off to pay for stuff and support some people that are to lazy to go get a job....so with that said anyone that wants this socialism agenda can pack their stuff up and move to England/Canada/France....but if you feel the need to stay in the USA stop trying to shovel the CR*& down my throat....
 
Wow! some of you guys must have made the telephone calls that I spoke about. Most likely not. For those of you talking your money, and what you have put ino the system over the years. Ask them about the cash-out option. You can use the amount you paid in, to fund your retirement and health insurance for the next 25 to 40 years. When your are willing to refuse to accept any and all Govt assistance, I will listen to, and respect your argument of working your butt off so all the dead beats and liberals can steal your hard earned money. Lets take it a step further just for fun: Lets say you could really free yourself from or Socialist gov't. Make all the money you can, with whatever education and skills you offer to an employer, do it ethically, or steal, cheat whatever it takes. You will not be taxed in any way, shape or form. All the money earn is 100% yours to do with as you please. Live your life free from the Gov't. Good for you "livin the life". Now, Stay off my roads, interstates and bridges, fight you own wars, investigate crimes yourself, pay cash for everything, no banks or loans, put out your own fires, grow your own food, home school your kids and pay cash for college, buy your own health insurance, or better yet, pay for you healthcare by yourself, stay out of my National Parks, and stay out of my air traffic. Until then, your arguments are hollow and weak. Come on guys Pony-up
 
outcaster - 8/15/2009 12:36 AM

Wow dropshot, quite a post, so much to choose from. First: I do have healthcare coverage, (wanna see my card?). I also understand that my healthcare coverage can be gone in an instant. As I said to someone else on this forum. "Now I remember why I don't go to Church anymore". Please don't pray for me! As for the Bible, don't you believe in the "literal" interpretation of Gods word? Seems the only time something is taken out of context is when it does not fit your idiology. I've forgotten more Bible than most people bothered to learn. You guys are all alike, you wrap yourself in the Flag, hide behind the Bible while looking down on others less fortunate than yourself calling them (your words), freeloading liberals, stealing your hard earned money. A pretty sad commentary coming from someone representing a so-called Christian organization proclaiming the values taught by Jesus Christ. It's really easy and quite fun to draw guys like you out of the woodwork by having you "out" yourself with your own words. As for personal attacks, is that a threat? Are you going to beat me up? What would Jesus think? Patrick, if you can't take the response, don't type the post. rotflmao


After he beats you up you will have to use your Medicaid card for your crappy insurance coverage... emoEnforce And for both of you, I teach Biblical Studies at auniversity in the evenings, and minored in the subject, so I mayknow more than both of you about the original translations of God's Word. (Either of you know Latin or Greek?)

As for "literal" interpretation of the Bible, This is one of the most misused words about the Bible by those expressing their ignorance of the Word. The word 'literal' means 'what the words say'. Yet the same exact word with the same exact spelling says different things <u>in different settings around different other words, using different literary forms.</u> (For instance, 'love' means one thing in Jesus' command to love, and a very different thing in aromantic poem, and still another when a child talks about a pet puppy.) A literalist believes that every word of the Bible is not just a part of the divine creative Message, but is also a specific word from God. Yet the human writers of the Bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit to tell stories and histories, write poems and songs, and share visions with their readers. It is literature. And this is the context in which you find out each word's true 'literal' meaning.

What many people mean when they say 'literal' is 'face-value' or 'in the strictest / narrowest sense'. But the Bible's writers, like most writers everywhere, don't just operate at face value. How can anyone who believes in the unseen spiritual realm be satisfied with just face value or the narrowest sense? Spirituality is about what lies beneath the face, a wide realm of complex simplicity and the deepest of meaning. There is another side to it, though : it isn't wise to simply disregard the literal face value meaning, for it's what the fuller meaning of the word grew from. A word starts from its face value, but rarely stays there.</p>

We call the study of what verses mean, in their settings and surroundings, the interpretive journey.</p>

And I will make one more comment and I am leaving this mess. Just because you think you are a Bible Scholar does not mean a thing. Look in Luke 4:9-13. Satan knew the Word as he tempted Christ. Just knowing the Bible and throwing out direct verses at your convenience makes you appear to be more of a conflicted soul than anything. Which is worse? Using a wrong word in a post or posting Biblical verses out of context. Personally, I would rather use the wrong word one time than I would try and misrepresent the Word of God. </p>

I will leave on this note, and the reason I left the Democratic Party a few years ago. How can anyone believe in God, or anything religous, and believe it is Ok to kill unborn babies? Looking at the above posts...the term "personal responsibiilty" strikes me. These human beings go out and do something stupid, and in an act of a desperation decide to take a human life. Any party that can support abortion, I have no use for.

</p>
 
Arrius, Im curious to know why you think your interpretation is the only one and the right one. Studying the word to me isn't a professor taught subject and is never the same for each. Your opening line is exactly why the word "Religion" is political. "You probably know more than they do?" Wonder what God thinks of that line?

Another line gets me too. "Just because you think you are a Bible Scholar does not mean a thing." I hope your also directing that towards yourself.
 
outcaster - 8/15/2009 10:27 AM

Wow! some of you guys must have made the telephone calls that I spoke about. Most likely not. For those of you talking your money, and what you have put ino the system over the years. Ask them about the cash-out option. You can use the amount you paid in, to fund your retirement and health insurance for the next 25 to 40 years. When your are willing to refuse to accept any and all Govt assistance, I will listen to, and respect your argument of working your butt off so all the dead beats and liberals can steal your hard earned money. Lets take it a step further just for fun: Lets say you could really free yourself from or Socialist gov't. Make all the money you can, with whatever education and skills you offer to an employer, do it ethically, or steal, cheat whatever it takes. You will not be taxed in any way, shape or form. All the money earn is 100% yours to do with as you please. Live your life free from the Gov't. Good for you "livin the life". Now, Stay off my roads, interstates and bridges, fight you own wars, investigate crimes yourself, pay cash for everything, no banks or loans, put out your own fires, grow your own food, home school your kids and pay cash for college, buy your own health insurance, or better yet, pay for you healthcare by yourself, stay out of my National Parks, and stay out of my air traffic. Until then, your arguments are hollow and weak. Come on guys Pony-up


We have accepted the fact that there are some things that we as a society have to pay for. I have no problem paying taxes for infrastructure. I do have a problem with being taxed to death, to pay for the non working,the pork projects from both parties. We have been ponyin up for years for these projects, and now, we are being asked to pony up more.

Why does it have to be all or none? When is enough...enough?

Your argument is the weak one, and really quite pathetic. "now stay off MY roads"(sic)., your the one fighting for socialism, you need to explain how this would be better for all of us?
 
BBass - 8/15/2009 11:55 AM

Arrius, Im curious to know why you think your interpretation is the only one and the right one. Studying the word to me isn't a professor taught subject and is never the same for each. Your opening line is exactly why the word "Religion" is political. "You probably know more than they do?" Wonder what God thinks of that line? <font color="#990033">Surely you don't think you can pull verses from anywhere and interpret them without looking at the surrounding verses. Do you know the original translations from Greek manuscripts? Do you know the history of the translations? Do you know that in one translation, the KJV, if the translator made one mistake in a book they could not just erase it, they had to start over from scratch, because the Bible was to be "infallible".
</font>
Another line gets me too. "Just because you think you are a Bible Scholar does not mean a thing." I hope your also directing that towards yourself.
<font color="#990033">I direct that line towards anyone and everyone including myself.

</font><font color="#990033">I made the initial comment because both were claiming their Bible knowledge superiority against the other. Actually, my interpretations have been mostly based of the original manuscripts, which is why I learned Greek (and Latin) in school (did not have much choice in order to graduate), and regardless of who you are and what religion, if you use the Bible out of context you can twist it to say anything. I am a believer that before studying the Bible one must pray for God to help guide their studies, and show the deeper meaning of his word.</font></p>

<font color="#000000">The summary of this post. Looks to me like one guy is a liberal and the rest areconservatives. Look at the post. One guy uses the word "pride", which you can tell by reading the entire post refers to a totally different meaning than personal arrogance when he refers to what God has blessed him with. The other guy infers he is a hypocrite because he does not want socialized medicine, and tells us he no longer goes to Church (which is his own preference). Can you guys freeze threads?</font></p>

<font color="#000000">They need to agree to disagree and move on.</font>
</p>
 
Thank you Airrus. I went downstairs to prepare for tonight and thought about what I had just posted. I want you to know I have the up most respect you as a teacher and a christain. I meant no harm if you felt I was "stabbing" abit. That wasnt my intent at all. I grew up SDA and went to SDA schools all but 3 years of my life. Ive played every kind of music in every kind of church(up til about 5 years ago)and was just about a youth minister until the hipocrites came out of the wood work. needless to say,I was young and 20-21 years old and not smart enough to realize that those types of people and how they were should have been the reason for me to continue the path I was on. </p>

Good post!</p>
 
AirrusBoy - 8/15/2009 12:21 PM

BBass - 8/15/2009 11:55 AM

Arrius, Im curious to know why you think your interpretation is the only one and the right one. Studying the word to me isn't a professor taught subject and is never the same for each. Your opening line is exactly why the word "Religion" is political. "You probably know more than they do?" Wonder what God thinks of that line? <font color="#990033">Surely you don't think you can pull verses from anywhere and interpret them without looking at the surrounding verses. Do you know the original translations from Greek manuscripts? Do you know the history of the translations? Do you know that in one translation, the KJV, if the translator made one mistake in a book they could not just erase it, they had to start over from scratch, because the Bible was to be "infallible".
</font>
Another line gets me too. "Just because you think you are a Bible Scholar does not mean a thing." I hope your also directing that towards yourself.
<font color="#990033">I direct that line towards anyone and everyone including myself.

</font><font color="#990033">I made the initial comment because both were claiming their Bible knowledge superiority against the other. Actually, my interpretations have been mostly based of the original manuscripts, which is why I learned Greek (and Latin) in school (did not have much choice in order to graduate), and regardless of who you are and what religion, if you use the Bible out of context you can twist it to say anything. I am a believer that before studying the Bible one must pray for God to help guide their studies, and show the deeper meaning of his word.</font></p>

<font color="#000000">The summary of this post. Looks to me like one guy is a liberal and the rest areconservatives. Look at the post. One guy uses the word "pride", which you can tell by reading the entire post refers to a totally different meaning than personal arrogance when he refers to what God has blessed him with. The other guy infers he is a hypocrite because he does not want socialized medicine, and tells us he no longer goes to Church (which is his own preference). Can you guys freeze threads?</font></p>

<font color="#000000">They need to agree to disagree and move on.</font>
</p>
</p>

If you know Greek you got me beat. I don't know English that well...</p>
 
Why does it always come to the Democrats are for abortion and the Republicans are not ? Look at all the babies that come into this world to people, who eventually kill them. Some just recently. I know couples who want to have their own child and would be great parents , instead some crack head gets it. Why didnt The Bush Regime stop aborttion, or were they too busy lining their pockets with gold. If you are against abortion their should be no orfhanages. How many children do you have under your roof ? I love this country and its Govt, everyone comes here for a reason. Leave if you dont like it I need your fishing spot !!!!!
 
xpress19 - 8/15/2009 12:52 PM

Why does it always come to the Democrats are for abortion and the Republicans are not ? Look at all the babies that come into this world to people, who eventually kill them. Some just recently. I know couples who want to have their own child and would be great parents , instead some crack head gets it. Why didnt The Bush Regime stop aborttion, or were they too busy lining their pockets with gold. If you are against abortion their should be no orfhanages. How many children do you have under your roof ? I love this country and its Govt, everyone comes here for a reason. Leave if you dont like it I need your fishing spot !!!!!

Because the house and senate were dem controlled....If the right had their way, it would be illegal. This is not that important of an issue to me. Our national debt and eroding freedoms concern me more.
 
The Bush Administration had complete control of the House and thr Senate in the beginning. I lived inTexas during the post -war years and I can tell you George was a faulure at everything including his presidency. Cheney was leading him around like a dog. Bush didnt make his own decisions, maybe if he did he might of done better. I think as far as the economy something drastic had to be done . Few people are alive today who could truly explain the great depression. The stimulus money promised only a small portion has been let out. Bush, right before he left gave 700 billion to his Republican investor. Look at all the wasted bonuses and lavish parties thrown around christmas. Help them or help us ?????
 
xpress19 - 8/15/2009 1:42 PM

The Bush Administration had complete control of the House and thr Senate in the beginning. I lived inTexas during the post -war years and I can tell you George was a faulure at everything including his presidency. Cheney was leading him around like a dog. Bush didnt make his own decisions, maybe if he did he might of done better. I think as far as the economy something drastic had to be done . Few people are alive today who could truly explain the great depression. The stimulus money promised only a small portion has been let out. Bush, right before he left gave 700 billion to his Republican investor. Look at all the wasted bonuses and lavish parties thrown around christmas. Help them or help us ?????

Oh, I agree....Bush was an idiot.
 
Cheez and jon, I did answer the question, very clearly, with a detailed list and everthing. Just because you did not get the anwswer you were looking for does not mean it was not answered. You're right xpress19, it seems that no matter what topic is discussed on here it always somehow comes back to Abortion. In these parts a person could not run for "Dog Catcher" without proclaiming his/her beliefs on abortion.
 
Ten Questions on the Health-Care Overhaul - An article from a good friend of mine.


1. What is the problem with health care, anyway? Is it as bad as they say?

The problem, as advocates for change see it, boils down to two big areas: high costs and lack of coverage. For some households and employers, the cost of care already is out of reach, and many more will struggle to afford it if costs keep escalating. Medicare is eating up a bigger share of government spending, and a growing number of bankruptcies and home foreclosures are linked to medical expenses.

2. Can Democrats and Republicans agree on anything?

Actually, yes. There is broad support for changing the way hospitals and doctors are paid so that they are compensated for the quality of care they provide, not the quantity of procedures they do. Democrats and Republicans also back the idea of creating online marketplaces where consumers and small businesses can comparison-shop for plans.

Both parties want to bar insurance companies from denying coverage to people who are already sick. The insurers are willing to make that concession, as long as lawmakers also require most people to carry insurance, since that would force young, healthy people into the insurance system.

It amounts to a twin mandate -- one on insurers to sell policies, and another on Americans to buy them. Although there are pockets of Republican opposition to the latter idea, both have enough bipartisan support to pass. These steps alone would represent big changes to the status quo.

3. Where are the main points of disagreement?

The sharpest divide between the two parties: Whether to create a government-run insurance plan (otherwise known as a "public plan") that would go up against private plans in online marketplaces. President Barack Obama says a public plan will keep private insurers honest. Republicans say it would give the government too much control over health care.

The other main battle, which doesn't break down as easily along party lines, is how to pay for a plan expected to cost at least $1 trillion over a decade. Many lawmakers think it makes sense to impose a tax on employer-provided health-care benefits, a perk that currently is tax-free.

Then they looked at the poll numbers. Many voters hate the idea of paying taxes on something that right now costs nothing. So Democrats have instead proposed raising taxes on the rich.

Congress also remains divided over whether to make employers (except really small ones) provide insurance. House Democrats propose that if companies don't offer insurance, they should contribute as much as 8% of their payroll spending toward helping workers buy insurance on their own. Republicans argue that companies will make up for it by cutting jobs and lowering wages.

4. What would a public plan look like?

The country already has a huge public plan -- Medicare, which covers the elderly and some other groups. It generally pays doctors and hospitals less than private insurers. Liberal Democrats would like to replicate it in the new marketplaces. They want the government directly to set premiums and services under the plan, perhaps with basic and premium options.

That isn't going to fly in this Congress, despite Democratic control of both chambers. Republicans are more opposed to having a government plan than Democrats are bent on having it. Conservatives figure the government would quickly drive private insurers out of business by undercutting them on price.

Two other scenarios have emerged as compromises. One is to hold off on creating the plan and instead impose heavy regulations on insurance companies aimed at making coverage accessible and affordable. If that doesn't work, then the government insurance plan would kick in after several years. The other idea is to create a batch of regional nonprofit insurance cooperatives to compete with private insurers. But many liberals consider that a far stretch from the original idea, since the government wouldn't run those plans.

One point that gets overlooked in the debate is that most people probably wouldn't even be eligible for the public plan. Only individuals without affordable employer-provided insurance and businesses that aren't big enough to buy reasonably priced plans on their own would qualify.

5. Why is the total price of the overhaul so expensive, especially considering that it is designed to bring down costs?

The cost mostly comes from giving people subsidies to buy insurance, and from expanding Medicaid, the federal-state insurance program for the poor, to cover more low-income Americans.

The theory is that once more Americans carry insurance, the entire health system will spend less money caring for them. Those people will have more access to care that prevents them from getting sick in the first place, and they would rely less on costly forms of treatment such as visiting the emergency room. But it could be years before that really reduces health costs, if it ever does.

President Obama often talks about more fundamental fixes for high costs, like paying for quality and blocking doctors from boosting their income with unnecessary tests. But Congress has limited power to change that.

6. What are the most likely ways to pay for the overhaul?

The White House has proposed about $950 billion in savings over 10 years to pay for the plan that include things like lower reimbursements to hospitals that treat Medicare patients.

The wealthy are a natural target. One proposal is limiting itemized tax deductions for families who earn more than $250,000 annually, a campaign idea of the president. House Democrats want to impose a surtax on wealthy individuals. Less likely are new taxes on soda and sugary drinks, which many lawmakers see as politically unpopular. Now, a middle class tax increase has been mentioned by Obama adminstration representatives.

7. Which industries are most likely to lose, and which to gain, from any overhaul?

Perhaps no industry stands to gain more from the changes than health insurers, who would get tens of millions of new customers because Americans would be required by law to carry health insurance. Pharmaceutical companies would sell more prescription drugs because more people would have coverage for drugs and access to doctors who prescribe them. Hospitals and doctors wouldn't have to provide as much free care as they do now.

But each of those groups also could take hits, particularly the health insurers if some kind of public option drives down their profit margins. The big losers would be retailers, restaurants and other businesses with low-income workers who provide little or no health insurance, since they would be forced to start paying for it.

Businesses that are too small to afford health insurance but not tiny enough to fall below the proposed $250,000 annual payroll cutoff that exempts them from providing coverage also could get squeezed by the legislation.

8. I already have insurance through my job - what happens to me?

Not too much at first. A handful of tax-free perks for the insured could get axed. For instance, lawmakers want to end the practice of allowing people to put money into so-called flexible spending accounts, which allow them to pay for everything from cosmetic dental work to surgery with tax-free dollars.

Longer term, a lot could change. For instance, your employer could drop coverage, preferring to pay the penalty for doing so and deflecting employees to Uncle Sam's plan. Cost-cutting efforts in other parts of the system could eventually affect employer-provided plans as well.

9. Politicians have tried for decades to push universal health insurance. Why did they always fail before? Why would this time be any different?

These efforts stretch back to the 1930s, when President Franklin Roosevelt proposed creating a compulsory health-insurance system for all Americans, run by the states. Doctors, worried it would hurt their pay, helped kill the measure, buoyed by opposition from business and labor groups. Other major health overhaul attempts, most notably President Bill Clinton's 1993-94 effort, died because powerful interest groups feared their members would either earn less or have to pay more under the new system.

What is different now is that major health and other interest groups are on board with the idea. Many insurers, hospitals, doctors and drug companies agree that the system is so flawed it isn't sustainable, and they see a bill as a chance to push through improvements like adopting electronic health records, broadening the use of data to show which treatments work best and reducing the threat of malpractice lawsuits. Employers see it as a chance to curb the sharply rising price of covering their workers. Almost no one is arguing that the system is fine the way it is. Mr. Obama's high popularity, coupled with wide Democratic margins in Congress, also grease the wheels for passing a bill.

10. What happens if the effort once again fails?

Lawmakers would likely scale back their plans and try to at least pass a measure that partially expands insurance coverage or helps stall the increase in health costs. But so many parts of the legislation are intertwined that they will be less effective, and perhaps impossible to achieve, if done piecemeal. Lawmakers might be reluctant to take up the controversial legislation ahead of congressional elections next year. So it would probably be several years before lawmakers tried again.
 
outcaster - 8/15/2009 2:37 PM

Cheez and jon, I did answer the question, very clearly, with a detailed list and everthing. Just because you did not get the anwswer you were looking for does not mean it was not answered. You're right xpress19, it seems that no matter what topic is discussed on here it always somehow comes back to Abortion. In these parts a person could not run for "Dog Catcher" without proclaiming his/her beliefs on abortion.

No Danny all you said was what you think the government should do now. Lets say this healthcare thing passes. As certain as the sun is shining there will be something else come up that is a "crisis" and we cannot live without. Then another then another. No sir you have NOT answered when you will say that you are satisfied. Which leads me to the conclusion that you will never be satisfied until there is no free enterprise. You will not be satisfied until we have full blown communism. Even then you will want more for nothing.

As far as abortion goes. Until there are no longer 4000 human beings murdered every single day in this country you will continue to hear it. There is nothing you can do to stop the outrage other than to join in the fight so you might as well get used to it.
 
outcaster - 8/14/2009 8:06 PM

On several of these threads, especially the ones about Healthcare, many posters are always talking about the evils of Socialism. And how the proposed plan to fix the healthcare system is Socialism, un-American, and down right evil. Somone has even said on this forum that our President is a Socialist and "is evil in a pure enough form as to be the right hand man of the antichrist and certainly a minion of Satan himself". Wow!

Recenty at one on these "Town Hall" meetings discussing Healthcare reform, many were shouting down the speaker. Finally she was able to get a word in, and asked for a show of hands of those with Medicare. Over half of the audience raised their hand. Then she asked them how many of them were willing to give it up. Not a single hand was left in the air. This got me to thinking about our "Socialism Services"

So if you want to play the "Socialist" card, here's what you need to do:

Option 1: If any of you are Senior Citizens, and have Medicare as your Healthcare insurance this is what you need to do: On Monday call the Medicare office and tell them that you and your spouse will no longer be using Medicare. Then call the Social Security office and tell them to stop sending those checks every month. Tell them that both of those programs are products of Socialism, and are un-American. After those phone calls have been made and you are now free from the Gov't. Now you will need to A: Call BCBS and setup a healthcare insurance plan for you and your spouse. or B: Go back to work and get a job with a company that provides healthcare insurance. Now you can argue Socialism!

Option 2: If any of the rest of you have parents or grandparents that have Medicare here's what you need to do. This weekend call up mom and dad or grandma, and convince them that Medicare and Social Security has always been the plan of the Socialists and their minions to take over every part of our lives. I'm sure they will quickly agree with you, and will no longer acccept Gov't assistance. After you have convinced mom and dad or grandma and grandpa to give up "Socialism Services", you will now need to A: Go into work on Monday, go straight to the HR office and add mom and dad or grandma and grandpa to your company's healthcare plan as your dependents. or B: Call BCBS and set them up with a health insurance policy just as good as Medicare, which, of course you will pay the premiums, deductables and co-payments. You will also need to write mom and dad a check every month, to cover the Social Security that they have decided to no longer take. Now you can argue Socialism!

Once Option 1 or 2 have been completed let all of us know!

There are many aspects to discuss involving Healthcare. Like: Can we as a Nation afford such a plan? Can the Gov't operate a portion, or all of the healthcare system? Is there really a Healthcare crisis? What about tort reform? Is quality Healthcare for all Americans a Right or a Privilege? Why are health insurance company's fighting so hard against any kind of reform? All good topics for discussion with valid points to be made on both sides.

But don't argue "Socialism" until you put your money where your mouth is!

To be fair for your argument to be valid the system should pay back those on SS all the money they paid in (with no choice) with interest and let them do what they want with it. When you look at how much money comes out of your check for SS you have to wonder if individuals would be able to do better with it (they would just for the record if they paid into an annuity and after you pass on your kids can still collect on some of them). I don't think its fair to force people to pay into a socialist program for 40 or 50 years and then ask them not to utilize it when the time comes... Also what about those of us that are young enough to doubt whether or not SS will exist but are still compelled to pay in?
 

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