we are witnessing the worst of both parties now...

[beetlespin]

The republicans held the middle class hostage so they could extend tax cuts for rich people. Not to be outdone the democrats held the middle class hostage to extend unemployment benefits for another 13 months. However, I like the way Obama snuck the social security tax decrease in there. Not sure how they are paying for all this either.

 

[Oldman]

your kids and their kids.

 

[Possum]

I know I am not very happy right now. The Democrats have had the chance to extend the tax cuts to the middle class. Like Cheez said they had control. Should have been a done deal. Extending the unemployment benifits for anoter 13 months, if I did that people would have to be going to school for retraining or something to get that. Waiting on the mail man would not get it. In this package the businesses are also going to be able to write off 100% of their expenses. I like it for the small businesses who like the rest of us make less than 250,000 a year. However the large corporations that get land given to them, substidies out the but, write offs, and are immortal on top of that. Have been living off our resources for years. They should have to pay their fair share for the services we provide. OK I have vented.

 

[Jmax]

I hate to say it but if they had not the upper class would be moving. Unless there is some change on taking big business out of the U.S. and then allowing it to be shipped in the upper class would just move out of the U.S. and then just ship it in. If we do not change, the jobs of the U.S. it will go there some day anyways and then there will be no one in the U.S. to buy the goods made overseas becuase no one has a job in this country to help buy them. emoDoh In todays times the upper class is not held here. If you tax them too much they will just up and move. That has already been seen in states where they were taxed too heaily and they just moved to a less taxing state. They would just move to a less taxing country. emoBooHoo The states that did that even had a double wammie when they were counting how much their revenue would increase but instead it decreased when the higher income people moved. That would be the outcome of taxing too much on big companies and wealthy people. It happens all the time now, why do you think so many of the jobs that were once in the U.S. are now out of country? We need to cut big government spending...plain and simple...until we do we will not get out of this hole.

I do not claim to know all the answers but,"Tax and Spend" is not the program. emoBadLanguage I think they needed to extend the Bush Tax cuts for at least the next four to six years. Only two is putting a bandaid on a broken bone. The market jumped on the news and some jobs will now be hiring but really it is still too little. Good to see the stock market up again. There will be some businesses that will now be hiring since they know of the tax cuts but the next big hurtle is the medical insurance sturcture program. You cannot really run a business well when you do not know what your expenses are going to be for the next year. How do you do forcasting, P&Ls, budgets...ex. You have no idea. With that said you spend as little as possiable, save as much as you can and wait to see what happens. emoCrazy

emoGeezer Jmax

 

[Possum]

Well, you might be right. However if those of us making less than $250,000 a year are not spending money. Game over. Problem with Republicans is they want to put evey business owner in the same category as multinational corporations. Hate to tell you this most have already left. Most small business owners who drive this nation make less than $250,000 a year per household after the write offs. The reason the big businesses are here is not because of taxes, but the infrustructure, education, and stability that exist here. The cuts to the corporations and interest is what is feeding our debt, not so much spending. What are we going to cut? Do you really think we are spending trillions studying wolves somewhere. Corporations here are not going to leave here until we are bankrupt, have fought their for profit wars, and then they will turn into something else and keep on going. They are immortal, but somehow we are suppose to be treated the same. Problem with America, we fight against our own best interest. Any of you wonder why we can't write off our basic expenses, like gas to work, utitilities, property taxes, house insurance, auto, all business expensises that we have to opperate. Maybe those are the the things Americans should at least think about. When it come to taxes, lets be more specific, instead of just if we raise or lower taxes.

 

[EricM]

Huh - this is nowhere near the worst of either party, and that's really scary.

In another vein:
Possum, sorry to single you out but it was your rant, (and others who don't seem to have a solid understanding of business) (no offense meant at all) I'd like to point out that businesses don't pay tax - NO MATTER WHAT. We (the consumer) pay it. Period. If a "tax" is levied on some aspect of a business, they simply add it to the cost of the goods or services they provide. Since the "tax" applies to all of the providers, there is no change in price competition - all will reach approximately the same price level since all will have the same costs and all will need a profit (the reason to risk going into business in the first place).

It falls to the end purchaser to pay ALL costs - materials, labor, overhead, "taxes" - in the purchase price. Of course, then you pay sales taxes on that, and if you think about it, that means you are paying taxes on the corporate "taxes" built into the cost. This is multiplied by each business in the supply chain. For example: A, B,and C all supply parts to D. They build the "tax" into their pricing to "D". "D" assembles these parts and sells its product (including all costs and taxes) to "E", who adds value and sells to "F", etc, etc, etc. You, the end user, pay for all of the costs - including taxes - in the purchase price.

Ever wonder how that boat got to cost so much? Think about all of the companies involved - mining for iron, chromium, brass and a whole bunch of other raw materials; mills and foundries to process each ore, fuel suppliers to heat the ores, natural gas rigs to drill for the fuel, pipelines and carriers, electric companies - there could easily be 1000 different companies involved in just the metal hardware on a boat. As you increase the "tax" on each of these companies, you increase your total purchase price.

Now, in reality, none of this results in any change to the "taxpayer". If we didn't pay this HIDDEN tax in the cost of our goods and services, then we would have to pay it on our income tax or as a national sales tax - but at least it would be an open tax and we would know how much our government is taking from us and have a more realistic handle on what they are doing with those tax dollars - and just maybe we could hold our government to much higher standards.

This is one of the arguments - and I think a good one - for the "FAIR TAX" proposal, but that is another can of worms............

In closing, I hope I have shown that the concept of making companies pay more tax - or any at all - really has absolutely no benefit to the taxpayer, and in fact only hides the real total amount of your taxes (which is one of the main reasons that the concept was adopted in the first place).

Thanks for taking the time to let me point all of this out to those who have never had an opportunity or a reason to ponder this. It is hidden, after all! emoBang emoDoh

 

[Jmax]

Let's take that one step further. As Eric has pointed out it becomes a cost of goods sold. Now if you can go outside the U.S. and reduce those costs but still sell them in the U.S. you have to look at that closely. Reduced taxes is only one piece of that puzzle. Reduced labor costs, reduced restrictions, don't have to worry about all the rules put out there by our government to keep your company/people safe. No need, a lot of other countries do not have them. No Unions, no HIPPA laws, no right to work rules, no Workers Comp, no OSHA or TOSHA and the list goes on and on..... All of this in the long run can and does reduce costs if the company does not do it on it's own once outside the U.S. That is why we are loosing so many companies overseas.

There is a lot of pet peas that are in government that is not needed. Tons of waste, that is called "Pork" and "Earmarks". They know if they try to pass it on it's own merit it would be defeated so they attach it to things that should and do pass so it goes through. That was one of the many things Obummer was going to stop in his promises if elected and it is worst now then ever. emoBadLanguage There is tons of poor spending out there, just look at all these "Shovel Ready" projects that have taken tons of money and yet are still not even close to getting off the ground. Don't get me started....I think both parties are full of themselves. They need to have to live in the world they create for us and under the same rules and benefits they voted in for us. emoProtest I will stop my rant....Jmax

 

[Possum]

So, I guess there is no such thing as competition. Hate to know corporations would have to trim the millions off CEO saleries to be able to compete. Much more profitable for the top to get you guys to cut their taxes so they don't have to cut back. I just hate to know how bad those guys are laughing at you guys when they put the stuff they do on the internet. A puppet, I am not.

 

[Possum]

Jmax - 12/7/2010 7:31 PM

Let's take that one step further. As Eric has pointed out it becomes a cost of goods sold. Now if you can go outside the U.S. and reduce those costs but still sell them in the U.S. you have to look at that closely. Reduced taxes is only one piece of that puzzle. Reduced labor costs, reduced restrictions, don't have to worry about all the rules put out there by our government to keep your company/people safe. No need, a lot of other countries do not have them. No Unions, no HIPPA laws, no right to work rules, no Workers Comp, no OSHA or TOSHA and the list goes on and on..... All of this in the long run can and does reduce costs if the company does not do it on it's own once outside the U.S. That is why we are loosing so many companies overseas.

There is a lot of pet peas that are in government that is not needed. Tons of waste, that is called "Pork" and "Earmarks". They know if they try to pass it on it's own merit it would be defeated so they attach it to things that should and do pass so it goes through. That was one of the many things Obummer was going to stop in his promises if elected and it is worst now then ever. emoBadLanguage There is tons of poor spending out there, just look at all these "Shovel Ready" projects that have taken tons of money and yet are still not even close to getting off the ground. Don't get me started....I think both parties are full of themselves. They need to have to live in the world they create for us and under the same rules and benefits they voted in for us. emoProtest I will stop my rant....Jmax

So, the earmark, the lock at the dam, was pork?

 

[Sniperchoke]

Sorry to bust you guys bubble but most businesses do pay taxes. The reason is because of competition. Competition drives prices down makes companies more efficient. Not everyone can just jack their price up if their is an increase in taxes because their competitor down the street might keep their prices the same. Make sense?

 

[EricM]

Snipe, it doesn't work that way because their competitor cannot survive on the margin that is left (his taxes went up too, remember?), and eventually all successful competitors will be priced similarly - or go out of business; too high and they can't sell, too low and there is no profit. It is how the free market works. Keep in mind, it takes time to level out and some prices will be different for a short time, but the ones who get it right flourish in the long run.

I think you missed the point. The taxes that the companies pay still come out of our pockets, so in effect, they don't pay them, they just collect them from us in the purchase price and send them in for us. As I said, hidden taxes.

 

[EricM]

Possum: "So, I guess there is no such thing as competition."
-Huh? Where did this come from? One of the previous posts? Can you explain what you mean by this? Maybe my last post cleared some of this up about competition.

"Hate to know corporations would have to trim the millions off CEO salaries to be able to compete."
-Compete with whom? Foreign operations? Foreign companies pay just as well to get and keep those very few executives that can handle the mega corporations (profitably).

"Much more profitable for the top to get you guys to cut their taxes so they don't have to cut back. I just hate to know how bad those guys are laughing at you guys when they put the stuff they do on the Internet."
-Cut whose taxes? They won't have to cut back on what? What "stuff" do they put on the Internet to laugh at "us" about? Just in case you haven't realized it, many of us learned how business works before Al Gore invented the Internet, through schooling and through business experience. I have both. I have worked as basic labor and I have worked as top management. I have faced bankruptcy and I have grown my own company. I learned that there are multiple sides to everything and that as you learn them your attitude changes. I had hoped to help you understand a bit more about business taxes so you could see how they really worked and that there is no net gain in raising them, but you seem to have taken it as an attack rather than as an opportunity.


"A puppet, I am not."
-Because you say so? Most people are not - they have only been able to see one side or the other. It doesn't make them puppets, and it belittles you to constantly suggest they are just because they only see their side - as you do yours.

 

[Sniperchoke]

EricM - 12/7/2010 9:21 PM

Snipe, it doesn't work that way because their competitor cannot survive on the margin that is left (his taxes went up too, remember?), and eventually all successful competitors will be priced similarly - or go out of business; too high and they can't sell, too low and there is no profit. It is how the free market works. Keep in mind, it takes time to level out and some prices will be different for a short time, but the ones who get it right flourish in the long run.

I think you missed the point. The taxes that the companies pay still come out of our pockets, so in effect, they don't pay them, they just collect them from us in the purchase price and send them in for us. As I said, hidden taxes.

Yes that is how competition works. But their are companies that will take less margin for more market share. In other words it doesn't matter if you make less on your product if you sale more. In my industry most companies wouldn't take Blue Cross Blue shield Insurance because their allowable's were about 6% less than the industry average. But their premiums were also less for their clients. So the amount of people with Blue Cross Blue Shield insurance started increasing. Therefore we decided at my company to become a provider and increased our client base. The increase in sales more than paid for the 6% cuts we took in allowable's...

 

[EricM]

Yep Snipe, you're absolutely right and that happens all day every day in the free market and keeps prices low for products (or services). In your case, apparently your costs did not go up as much as the business increased and you still made at least a minimum margin. Unfortunately, as the tax increases become more significant, all in the industry would be affected and in order to maintain profit would have to pass those increases on, just as they would if their material costs doubled (for example).

 

[Possum]

EricM - 12/7/2010 9:27 PM

Possum: "So, I guess there is no such thing as competition."
-Huh? Where did this come from? One of the previous posts? Can you explain what you mean by this? Maybe my last post cleared some of this up about competition.

"Hate to know corporations would have to trim the millions off CEO salaries to be able to compete."
-Compete with whom? Foreign operations? Foreign companies pay just as well to get and keep those very few executives that can handle the mega corporations (profitably).

"Much more profitable for the top to get you guys to cut their taxes so they don't have to cut back. I just hate to know how bad those guys are laughing at you guys when they put the stuff they do on the Internet."
-Cut whose taxes? They won't have to cut back on what? What "stuff" do they put on the Internet to laugh at "us" about? Just in case you haven't realized it, many of us learned how business works before Al Gore invented the Internet, through schooling and through business experience. I have both. I have worked as basic labor and I have worked as top management. I have faced bankruptcy and I have grown my own company. I learned that there are multiple sides to everything and that as you learn them your attitude changes. I had hoped to help you understand a bit more about business taxes so you could see how they really worked and that there is no net gain in raising them, but you seen to have taken it as an attack rather than as an opportunity.


"A puppet, I am not."
-Because you say so? Most people are not - they have only been able to see one side or the other. It doesn't make them puppets, and it belittles you to constantly suggest they are just because they only see their side - as you do yours.

I have been in the military, a laborer where I put my wife through school, a business owner, real estate investor, and now a teacher/football coach certified in Economics, Government, and U.S History. I know a little bit about how things work as well. I also understand the smoke and mirror effect that is taking place in our country, i.e.; yellow journalism. As a small business owner, or someone selling a house, it has always benifited me more that the middle class have more disposable income than anyone else. I don't think I need a lesson in business.

 

[Possum]

Hate to know corporations would have to trim the millions off CEO salaries to be able to compete."
-Compete with whom? Foreign operations? Foreign companies pay just as well to get and keep those very few executives that can handle the mega corporations (profitably).

Their own employee's to answer your question EricM.
Shift tax burden to middle class, while keeping wages low, keep CEO saleries high and still able to compete, can work in different ways. Your way just happens to be the Republican way. Have no problem with it if that is the way people want to go. No matter what you do only going to get so much for your product. Really want change my stars either way.

 

[TightlineT]

I don't think we are witnessing the worst of both parties now - just my opinion. I think the worst was when old man Bush was pushing NAFTA and then Clinton came in and signed it into law. You can pay a lot of taxes if you had our jobs back that we have lost from this and over 9.5 percent of Americans would not be out of work today. We have lost our manufacturing backbone. Just my opinion. I'm sure neither have lost any sleep or any filet mignon dinners sice then. Like a Mexican making $.50 per hour can help our economy like they said....BS!!! They were all bought out. Tightlines and happy fishing!!!! Jim

 

[Sniperchoke]

I think the legislation is a sucess. Everyone gets to keep the same tax rate. These tax cuts were not just for the poor look it up. Everyone that paid taxes got a cut. Plus a tax deduction for children. That affects all families. Bottom line this is a win win for all tax paying citizens. Remember the rich still pay the majority of the taxes in this country.

 

[outcaster]

The rich DO pay the majority of the taxes. (total taxes collected). However the rich pay a smaller piece of their financial pie in taxes, (and hidden taxes) than does the middle class. I am VERY pissed at Obama right now! Instead of trading the rich peoples tax cuts for 13 more months of un-employment benefits, he should have required those rich folks to get off their "assets", create some jobs like they keep telling us that they do, and tie their tax cut to the "un-employment rate"......... if they can create jobs, and keep the jobless rate under 6% they keep them.

 

[SpurHunter]

I would love to add something constructive here, but it's pretty much all been said by now.

I will say however, Danny, get ready over the next two years to get even more pissed at the Prez. He has shown his true colors.....he will do whatever it takes to get back in the graces of the swing voters to get elected.