Economics of Commercial Fishing in Tennessee

[dlancas]

I ran across this document while doing research on the subject. Read it for yourself (link below - commercial fishing section starts at p.28), but here are some highlights:
-Commercial fishing results in $2.7 million in annual revenues for commercial fisherman
-Of this $2.7 milllion, $1.2 million is from Paddlefish Roe
- There were 385 commercial licenses issued in 2004 for the entire state
- Only 12% of fisherman are full time (46 for the whole state), the remainder just fish part time or to provide their own food
- The license rate has been decreasing at a rate of 5% per year due to more people retiring from the trade than getting into it, the market price makes it tough to make money
- Chickamauga and Nickajack represent 5%($135k) and 2.1%($57k) of the annual catch respectively
- If the catch % is representative of the number of full time anglers, this would equate to a total of 3 full time commercial anglers for the two lakes combined
- There were 903,000 licensed sport fishing anglers in 2004 that spent an estimated $480,221,000

The numbers just do not make sense. I know that striper stockings would result in millions of dollars additional revenue to the area (compared to $192k for commercial fishing) and create many more than 3 jobs.

http://tennessee.gov/twra/pdfs/StratPlan06-12.pdf

 

[Guest]

dlancas - 1/4/2008 10:13 PM
...The numbers just do not make sense. I know that striper stockings would result in millions of dollars additional revenue to the area (compared to $192k for commercial fishing) and create many more than 3 jobs.

Please explain to me how you come up with more than 192k revenue (ie direct expenditures) from striper fisherman. I believe that you are trying to compare ancillary expenditures with direct revenue which are two very different numbers.

 

[Guest]

I added an example:

If 10 striper fisherman buy new $20,000 boats, they have spent $200,000 (ancillary). However the boat dealer only has a small market up (lets say 10%), so the revenue from those sells is only $20,000 (revenue).

If all fishing related items have a 10% markup, striper fisherman would have to purchase [bold]2 million[/bold] worth of goods and services (in the state of TN) to equal the revenue of commercial fisherman ($192,000, rounded up to 200k).

 

[price]

Great 1st post. In NO WAY do commercial fisherman bring in the revenue that anglers do in TN. I had one person in power at the TWRA say he could not understand how so few people with so little revenue brought in to the state/TWRA have any power. The answer is that even though there are only about 300 of them they ALL show up for TWRA meetings. There will be a ton of them at a meeting, and I have been told at some meetings where their issues are discussed few if any anglers will show up! When you look at the minutes of the meetings you only hear what commercial fisherman had to say, and it makes it look like they are more important than they really are. The problem is that those same 300 people can do a ton of damage to a river or lake system. People on this board and others could give you a tons of examples. If anglers want gill nets and commercial fishing more restricted you must call, email, and write letters to commissoners at the TWRA. You must do this even when you do not think it will matter. Also, the most important is tha YOU/WE need to show up to these TWRA meetings and let our opinion be heard. All the meetings are posted on the TWRA website with dates and topics o be discussed. All the commissioners emails and #'s are listed. EVERY time a meeting is held to discuss commercial fishing issues the commercial fishing guys will show up. It makes them appear to be more powerful than they really are. Trust me, not only are they not pwoerful they ARE NOT more important than the overall well-being of the fishery or the 100,000's anglers in the state of TN or fish in TN from out-of-state.

 

[MrWiskers]

- Chickamauga and Nickajack represent 5%($135k) and 2.1%($57k) of the annual catch respectively

This does not sound like a lot but what are they selling and how much per pound do they get? Plus if this is from catfish sales then what happens to all the other fish they kill in the nets? What percentage of fish caught in gil nets are catfish? Are drum still kept for fish meat? Does anyone still commerically fish for mussels? What percertage of this revenue comes from trotlines versus nets?

On the flip side, what is the revenue generated from guides on these two bodies of water? Keep in mind out of towners coming to Chattanooga for a guide trip have to have somewhere to stay, eat, buy a licesnse, etc. and I bet most of them wind up at the mall. I don't think commerical fishermen spend that much money on hotels, restraunts, etc when they go out. I would say the total expenditures for a guide and commerial fisher would be close to the same with no additional revenue generated for the surrounding area by commerical fishing. Does anybody rememeber BASS coming to the Chick? How much money did that bring into the area? How much money does bass fishing bring to Guntersville due to its world class fishing?

Would banning commerical fishing make bass, catfish, and striper fishing better on the Chick/Nick? Who knows but we may find out on Watts Bar.

Gotta love economics.

 

[Guest]

MrWiskers - 1/8/2008 3:06 PM

- Chickamauga and Nickajack represent 5%($135k) and 2.1%($57k) of the annual catch respectively

This does not sound like a lot but what are they selling and how much per pound do they get?

less than half of what you can pay retail, never over $2/lb for whole fish (for food). Many of the larger cats (live) are being shipped out for pay-fishing lakes in the midwest. These are what bring top dollar.

I am not sure how much per Plus if this is from catfish sales then what happens to all the other fish they kill in the nets? What percentage of fish caught in gil nets are catfish? Are drum still kept for fish meat?

A better question might be what percentage of gill net catch is sport fish (other than catfish). I believe this has been study and is generally a function of how long the net spends underwater. Longer time under water, more bycatch.

Does anyone still commerically fish for mussels?

Yeah the TN shell company is still active in Camden, TN.

What percertage of this revenue comes from trotlines versus nets?

Good question, I see lot more trotlines than gill nets, actually I don't think I have ever seen a gill net (other than the ones used by TVA/TWRA for research).

On the flip side, what is the revenue generated from guides on these two bodies of water? Keep in mind out of towners coming to Chattanooga for a guide trip have to have somewhere to stay, eat, buy a licesnse, etc. and I bet most of them wind up at the mall. I don't think commerical fishermen spend that much money on hotels, restraunts, etc when they go out. I would say the total expenditures for a guide and commerial fisher would be close to the same with no additional revenue generated for the surrounding area by commerical fishing.

Sportfish (other than catsfish) guiding or Catfish guiding? Most of the commercial fishing is for species other than catfish.

Does anybody rememeber BASS coming to the Chick? How much money did that bring into the area? How much money does bass fishing bring to Guntersville due to its world class fishing?

Yup remember BASS well, it provide a lot of advertisment, not sure how much actually revenue it brought. I am sure economic studies have been done on big tournments. Watts Bar will never be Guntersville, no need to try. Chick may be, but not likely. I say this because they are different habitats, flows, nutrients etc.

Would banning commerical fishing make bass, catfish, and striper fishing better on the Chick/Nick? Who knows but we may find out on Watts Bar.

My opinion is that banned commerical fishing would make no difference to bass and striper on the Chick/Nick. Catfish may see a mild improvement but I highly doubt it since commerical fishing is such a small part of the harvest of catfish.

 

[price]

In the TWRA study listed on the link above in the thread 45.1% of all species harvested by commercial fisherman was catfish. That was 2.21 million pounds!! They are the #1 fish targeted according to the study by the TWRA. A larger % were shipped off to pay ponds before the 34" rule went into place. Then all the garbage started about changing the law so they (commercial fisherman) could start shipping them off again. Catfishing will dramatically improve at lakes/rivers where commercial fishing is eliminated or reduced.

 

[Guest]

Price,

If all of your 2.21 million lbs of catfish were taking out of just Nickajack, Chickmauga, and Watts Bar (85,700 acres) the amount of catfish harvested would be 25.8 lbs of catfish per acre.

Add KY Lake (at 160,300 acres) and that number drops to under 9 lbs of catfish per acre. That number keeps droping when you start adding in Ft. Loundon, Norris, Cherokee, Douglass, TN portions of Pickwick, Barkley and so on. While 2.21 million lbs sounds like alot, it really isn't that much when you start looking at on per acre basis.

 

[Bprice]

Someone compared Chick and Guntersville, and asked about the revenue that is generated by bass fishing.  We have lots of commercial fisherman, and gill nets are legal.  The bass fishing is still fantastic on Guntersville and Wheeler. 

 

[dlancas]

R14 I understand the "Value Added" concept. However, I think the 10% example given is quite low. I would estimate the number closer to 30% average. I have found some TWRA data (linked below) that gives some guidance on striper fishing expenditures at Cherokee and Norris Reservoirs. The "Total Value by Anglers" was estimated at a total of $1,068,800 combined for both reservoirs. Total angler effort for striper at these lakes is around 20%, and expeditures are greater than 20%.

Additionally, Whiskers brings up a good point on guide services. I would estimate at least an extra $100k in revenue for guides for a world class striper fishery. There are a few lakes in the Southeast that probably generate 4-5 that amount of revenue for striper guide services (Lanier, Cumberland, Hartwell, and others). This guiding revenue would give the same value added credit as commercial fishing.

http://twra.us/AnnualReservoirTechnicalReports_TWRA/2006/NorrisAnnualReport2006Negus.pdf
http://tnfish.org/AnnualReservoirTechnicalReports_TWRA/2006/CherokeeAnnualReport2006Negus.pdf

 

[Guest]

dlancas, I am trying to understand your point but it is not making since to me. It is probably one of things that could easily be discussed face to face, but over the internet things get complicated.

The commercial revenue number listed above is cash in pocket after all expenses have been paid (ie the amount written on the paycheck).

Your total value by anglers for striper fisherman at Cherokee and Norris (1 mil x 20%) is roughly 225k. This value is what was spent, not revenue.

In order to compare the value to revenue, one would need to know the mark up on every item purchased, after subtracting such things as overhead, taxes, depreciation, etc. If I knew of an industry that had limited overhead and that made 30 cents on every dollar, 1) I would be in that industry and 2) I would be a very rich man.

I actually choose 10% because 1) it made the math easier to follow and 2) I thought it was an overly conservetive estimate.

Anyway back to the figures: 10% profit of 225k is about 22,500 revenue by my numbers and only 30% profit of 225k is about 67500 revenue by your numbers. These numbers are assuming no overhead, taxes etc.

You also make another assumption that may or may not be valid. You assume that the Chick will become a world class striper fishery. You mention Lanier, Hartwell, and Cumberland. To me, Chickmauga is a very different reservoir than those three. Your striper reservoirs all have deep water and lots of cold water, 2 are very steep sided (not alot of shalow shoreline structure), and 1 is very very large with long renention time (takes along time for the water to spill). Chickmauga on the other hand is much warmer, much shallower, and does not hold water very long. In my mind, I can't compare Chick to the others as it behaves differently.

 

[Guest]

Another way to look at it, would be to find the value of the catfish sold to make the 200k revenue for the comercial fishers.

Commercialfisher sells for x, then wholeseller sells for x plus profit, plus wages, plus equipment, then distrubuter sells x plus wholesellers profit plus new profit, plus wages, plus equipment, then it gets sold to the restaurant/store and so on and so forth it reaches the end consumer.

In summary the catfish sold by the commercial fishers have alot more value than just the revenue that has came in.

 

[price]

The study on selling catfish also stated that catfish prices per pound had not went up in the last 30 years when you take into account inflation. My thought is that if that the numbers are that low (trust me they are not or just ask people on this site that see cats taken out or read past posts) then why not just get rid of commercial fishing for cats on these lakes? If it is not making that much money why let them string gill nets out, and catch catfish and in turn even catch a few gamefish in gill nets etc. Commercial fishing for catfish just needs to hit the road like other things do with time. I saw a report several years ago where a commercial fisherman caught and killed a 120 LB blue on Chick. 1st, it was illegal at the time for him to do that. Commercial fisherman could have zero in their possesion at that time (now it is one). He should have not been in the newspaper, but in the courtroom with a big fat fine. #1 the large cats have the highest levels of contamination (check any studies) so you can't eat it, and 2nd you can't mount a trophy cat because it doesn't have scales (only a replica mount). The commercial fisherman that did that needed to be sent out and horsewhipped at town square in frony of everyone. I would have volunteered to do the whipping.

 

[Guest]

price - 1/11/2008 10:30 AM
The study on selling catfish also stated that catfish prices per pound had not went up in the last 30 years when you take into account inflation.

If you take into account inflation, minimium wage is about 3x less than what it was 30 years ago. So what is your point?

My thought is that if that the numbers are that low then why not just get rid of commercial fishing for cats on these lakes?

Why not get rid of bowhunting. After all it is archaic too, especially when you have other newer more effiecient methods.

Figure out the total acres of water in TN reservoirs and divide that into the total weight of commercially caught catfish. I think you will come up with less than 0.10 pounds of catfish per acre of water, which to me is a very small (as in insignificant) part of the total population.

I think jugs and yo-yo's harm the catfish population way more than a few commercial gillnetters do.

 

[price]

The difference is that one group are anglers/sportsman and fish. The other group tries to make a living off public resources. It would be the same if I went and trapped deer alive, and then went and sold them to hunting clubs for my own private gain. I have no problem with deer hunters, but if I take deer that sportsman have the right to hunt and sell them for my own personal gain then I am dead wrong. The same goes for commercial catfishing. They take public resources that anglers can fish for, and sell for their own private gain. In no way will anyone ever convince me that is fair or ethical. The other problem is that they use gill nets, the laziest form of fishing ever created, to catch catfish etc. and have gamefish caught in nets by default. The inflation concept came right from the TWRA report. The point was that with out increased $ opportunties, or catfish per pound going up, the industry had been hurt. They also brought up that the industry had been hurt by overseas sales of fish (to America) and catfish farms that provide farm raised catfish. I hope that no one will ever confuse a sportsman/angler, fishing by traditional catfishing techniques, with a commercial fisherman.

 

[Guest]

price - 1/11/2008 11:31 AM

The difference is that one group are anglers/sportsman and fish. The other group tries to make a living off public resources.

I guess you would have problems with foresters, mushroom hunters, ginsing, ramps, gemstone and other types that collect/harvest from public resources. Honestly, are you against commercial use or are you against nonsustainable use? Do you have more entitlement to the catfish than the commercial, do they have more than you? I assume you think that the commercial allocation is too high, while you are entitled to more (or all)? Aren't you trying to guide? How is making money of the fish by guiding give you more entitlement than someone making money of commercial fishing?

It would be the same if I went and trapped deer alive, and then went and sold them to hunting clubs for my own private gain. I have no problem with deer hunters, but if I take deer that sportsman have the right to hunt and sell them for my own personal gain then I am dead wrong. The same goes for commercial catfishing. They take public resources that anglers can fish for, and sell for their own private gain.

Not sure how your example applies to public waters, however game (boar, exotics) are routinely bought and sold for use on private game preserves.

In no way will anyone ever convince me that is fair or ethical.

I can agree to disagree, however I find it sad that you are being closed minded. I will continue my discussion, incase others that want to hear both sides decide to be open minded.

The other problem is that they use gill nets, the laziest form of fishing ever created, to catch catfish etc. and have gamefish caught in nets by default.

Jugs and yo-yo's, IMO, are much lazier. Gill nets take lots of effort to haul in and out. Also takes lots of effort to remove fish. And IMO gillnets are not that effective, otherwise TWRA would use them more often for there sampling (vs using electrofishing boats). Mesh size restriction and seasonal/locational closures can be very effective at reducing bycatch of sportfish. Besides bycatch takes time to take out of the net, time is money so why would commercialfishers waste time in areas where sportfish are present?

The inflation concept came right from the TWRA report. The point was that with out increased $ opportunties, or catfish per pound going up, the industry had been hurt. They also brought up that the industry had been hurt by overseas sales of fish (to America) and catfish farms that provide farm raised catfish.

Lots of industry is going down, what this has to do with eliminating the industry, I am not sure.

I hope that no one will ever confuse a sportsman/angler, fishing by traditional catfishing techniques, with a commercial fisherman.

TWRA doesn't confuse the two, as they have seperate licenses, seperate rules. I hope TWRA doesn't confuse an average angler's prefered rules and regs with a guide's (who makes money off a public resource) prefered rules and regs.

To me, it sounds like you have an entitlement issue. You feel as though the commercial fishers are not entitled to any catch (for profit), while you feel that you are entitled to guide others to catch (for profit). Can the resource not be shared?

 

[price]

It will change when catfish are recognized as a gamefish like crappie, bass, and stripers. All the anglers (I do also) that fish for these species would be up in arms if they were caught and sold at the market like catfish. Things change over time and so do people's attitudes. Catfishing as become a true "sport" over the last 10 years. More anglers dedicate themselves to catfishing just like bass anglers etc. I will continue to work to get catfish as a gamefish status with no commercial harvest like other sportfish. If 10 LB bass or 50 LB stripers were being harvested on lines or gill nets the army would have to be called in to protect commercial fisherman. The catfish's lowly status as rough fish is changing. As that does, as a lot of things do, the idea that that commercial fishing should be stopped will not be a "crazy" idea. Is a bass or crappie "better" than a catfish? In the past the answer would be yes, in the eyes of most anglers, but with the popularity of catfishing, and trophy catfishing, the concept will change. It has already started to change. 1,000 of catfish anglers feel the same way.

 

[drumking]

I'm glad that I don't have a dog in this fight! emoHoppingmad Sounds like a couple of lawyers in a high profile case. emoBigsmile emoGeezer

 

[price]

With the poll on gillnets the way it is going and some of the private messages I have recieved in support of my stance I like how I am sitting with the jury emoAngel