Lee Iacocca "Where have all the Leaders gone?"

[Sniperchoke]

You can't fill up a pool by taking from the deep end and pouring it into the shallow end.

 

[Possum]

beetlespin - 2/11/2010 9:02 AM

You know, there are times when nothing is better than something... Do any of you really believe the govt can spend our way out of this? Hell we spent our way into this mess. In Europe the govt had a car program like cash for clunkers last year just way bigger. Now that those programs have ended car orders are falling like a rock. We are about to see the backlash that happens after govt programs. And believe it or not, what happens over there matters here.

Who said the government alone could spend our way out of this. All fiscal policy does is absorb the blows of a recessive economy, and keep it from spiraling into a depression. We have also used monetary policy in correcting a recessive economy through open market operations, "Making loans to banks" who have in return loaned money to other businesses. Many businesses, who will begin work on many government contracts. As far as spending our way into this mess, are you referring to government or individuals? I say this because a big part of government spending the last nine years has flowed out of the country. To be honest, no matter a Republican or Democrat in office in a recessive economy Fiscal policy is going to be used and the debt will rise. The difference is where democrats usually spend on infrustructure, Republicans push for tax breaks for corporations, I.e., capital gain tax and offer more write offs "incentives to invest more money" In order for Obama to cross party lines he is probably going to have to throw a bone to the latter at some point. My only problem with trickle down economics is that there is no guarantee money will be invested here. Like the bailout money should have been loaned, in other words bonases should have not been given to bank CEO's until loans were payed off. (Althouth alot of the bonuses were grandfathered in) To get write offs it should be geared toward reinvesting money here. As far as spending our way out of this, that is what drives any economy today, reinvestment, and spending from government to maintain infrusructure and military which creates stability, and spending from the private sector as well. Time to spend on infrastructure usually comes during a recession because it is cheaper to do so, materials and labor are usually cheaper during those times. When jobs are created government gets a chunk back though creating a larger tax base. It is called the circular flow of income and output put into economic terms.

 

[Guest]

SNUFFY - 2/11/2010 9:56 AM

well If they put it on the floor ....then the Rebublicans will talk it to death....
It` called a fillibuster !
better to reach some kind of compromise and get something that will pass
But the Repubs plan is to gridlock till November and hope for the best

There have been no fillibusters since olbummer became president. You are going to have to come up with a better excuse/lie than that.

 

[Possum]

Sniperchoke - 2/11/2010 9:51 AM

You can't fill up a pool by taking from the deep end and pouring it into the shallow end.

No, but I can get a car that has run out of gas to run by putting gas in it. Get to work, make more money to buy more gas, pay bills, by goods and services, so those people can pay their bills and buy gas, all by putting a little gas in my car.

 

[twilson]

Possum - 2/11/2010 12:16 PM


How fast were things suppose to improve. Lets use the lock at Chick for example. It took a year after the money for the lock was appropriated, before any real work even started. It will be this year before any real work begins on alot of the projects that the stimulas money was appropriated for. The loans to banks and others is already being paid back. The economy has leveled off and shows signs of improving. Anyone that has an unterstanding of economics knows there is a lag time after a recession before the economy usually begins to improve. If things are not very much improved by this time next year I will be very suprised.

No Possum over half of that money was for "shovel ready" jobs which means a project which was ready to start in 90 days try again. So its already been spent just not on the right thing or with the right people. I understand there is a lag but we are still a ways off from seeing anything drastic.

 

[Guest]

Possum - 2/11/2010 11:03 AM

Sniperchoke - 2/11/2010 9:51 AM

You can't fill up a pool by taking from the deep end and pouring it into the shallow end.

No, but I can get a car that has run out of gas to run by putting gas in it. Get to work, make more money to buy more gas, pay bills, by goods and services, so those people can pay their bills and buy gas, all by putting a little gas in my car.

sounds real good but what if the gas costs ten times more than u will
make

 

[Sniperchoke]

"No, but I can get a car that has run out of gas to run by putting gas in it. Get to work, make more money to buy more gas, pay bills, by goods and services, so those people can pay their bills and buy gas, all by putting a little gas in my car."

So Possum your assumption would be if a citizen could keep more of their hard earned money via "tax cuts" maybe they could afford to stimulate the economy the way they wanted to instead of gov't choosing who to and what to stimulate. Congratulations you are finally starting to see the light.

 

[Possum]

twilson - 2/11/2010 10:41 AM

Possum - 2/11/2010 12:16 PM


How fast were things suppose to improve. Lets use the lock at Chick for example. It took a year after the money for the lock was appropriated, before any real work even started. It will be this year before any real work begins on alot of the projects that the stimulas money was appropriated for. The loans to banks and others is already being paid back. The economy has leveled off and shows signs of improving. Anyone that has an unterstanding of economics knows there is a lag time after a recession before the economy usually begins to improve. If things are not very much improved by this time next year I will be very suprised.

No Possum over half of that money was for "shovel ready" jobs which means a project which was ready to start in 90 days try again. So its already been spent just not on the right thing or with the right people. I understand there is a lag but we are still a ways off from seeing anything drastic.

Ok lets say 90 days, I am sure it has kept alot of people working.

 

[Possum]

Sniperchoke - 2/11/2010 11:18 AM

"No, but I can get a car that has run out of gas to run by putting gas in it. Get to work, make more money to buy more gas, pay bills, by goods and services, so those people can pay their bills and buy gas, all by putting a little gas in my car."

So Possum your assumption would be if a citizen could keep more of their hard earned money via "tax cuts" maybe they could afford to stimulate the economy the way they wanted to instead of gov't choosing who to and what to stimulate. Congratulations you are finally starting to see the light.

Not starting to see the light, tax cuts will create jobs as well, still adds to debt though. Fiscal policy you can increase demand through tax cuts, government spending, or both. When did I ever say tax cuts would not create jobs. Thing is when most Reps. talk tax cuts, it is not for you or me. I am all for tax cuts, like to start with Middle Class. Poor does not pay any, don't feel as if corporations pay their share. If Republicans were serious about cutting taxes, why are they not pushing hard for middle class tax cuts. If Republicans want to win me over, They already have me on guns and abortion. Become more friendly to the middle class i.e.' Middle class tax cuts, upper-small business owners, and prfessionals, to the lower middle class, those making 40-50 in house hold income stuggling to make ends meet. Give more write offs for paying for childs education, transportation cost, child care, community work, donations, depreciation of auto for each income earner. More friendly to labor unions, and so on.

 

[Sniperchoke]

Agree with most of what you said except labor unions. They are a huge problem because they force Companies to go oversees to be competitive. Bush did cut taxes for the middle class in fact everyone that paid taxes received a tax cut. Its funny that you are a Obama supporter since he raised taxes disproportionately on the poor and the elderly. The new tobacco tax started and signed in by Obama affects the poor 37 times more than an increase in income taxes would have. An increase in the Medicare deductible and premiums that went into effect Jan 1 affects seniors.

 

[Possum]

Sniperchoke - 2/11/2010 1:26 PM

Agree with most of what you said except labor unions. They are a huge problem because they force Companies to go oversees to be competitive. Bush did cut taxes for the middle class in fact everyone that paid taxes received a tax cut. Its funny that you are a Obama supporter since he raised taxes disproportionately on the poor and the elderly. The new tobacco tax started and signed in by Obama affects the poor 37 times more than an increase in income taxes would have. An increase in the Medicare deductible and premiums that went into effect Jan 1 affects seniors.

Well if companies can afford to pay multimillion dollar bonuses and stay competitive, I certainaly think they can pay more to labor. Bush did cut taxes to middle class, will give him that. As far as tobacco tax being 37 times more than income tax. Well what the poor pays in income taxes they get back, sometimes more with child income credit. I don't have a problem with it. Tobacco is one of the leading causes of health problems in this country, and when the poor gets sick it is the tax payer that more than often flips the bill. I can understand the promotion by the tobacco companies though. Have to look into medicare. I still think it is safe to say we know what Republicans would do with it if they could. As well as the rest of the entitlement progams. Certainly heard enough about socialism.

 

[Sniperchoke]

Fact the tobacco tax disproportionatly affects the 37 times more than an increase in income taxes. Because who pays most of the income taxes? If you answered the rich then go to the front of the class. Also the tobacco tax doesn't statistically reduce the amount of usage of tobacco. It is an increased tax burden on the poor.

 

[Possum]

Snip you work for a tobacco company by any chance? Just kidding. Yes rich do pay more, I also believe they do not pay enough. Warren Buffet believes that as well. Well the rich also benifits more from the taxes. i.e., educated workforce, military, highway and bridge system, government substadies, land grants from city, local, and federal government. Look at VW. It is all good too. It creates jobs. You and I using word rich is probably misleading as well, I am thinking more inline with capital gains instead of income.

 

[Sniperchoke]

There are also a lot of so called rich that are small business owners who create most of the jobs in this country. If you burden them more with taxes guess what they don't hire as many people....

 

[Possum]

Sniperchoke - 2/11/2010 4:16 PM

There are also a lot of so called rich that are small business owners who create most of the jobs in this country. If you burden them more with taxes guess what they don't hire as many people....

I agree 100%. Rich is probably a bad way of putting it. Small businesses should get more breaks than large corporations. I am for making those folks richer. I think capital gains should be 32-36% with enough write offs for small businesses that if they reinvest they basically pay no taxes, and their business grows. I am not talking about income, the owner decides how much income he or she takes from their business. Then their income is taxed just like everyone else. Our economy is based on reinvestment (spreading the wealth), does not mean hand out.

 

[troutfly]

I love people who are so partisan that they will defend their parties in office regardless of how horrible of a job they are doing in office. For those who dont know yet, Obama has done a horrible job so far and I dont see it getting better in the near future with all his and his cabinets water-headed solutions. My opinion though

 

[beetlespin]

I'm actually reading this book right now. Great book so far but when I read the first post in this thread I thought it was a slam on democrats. So far the book is a slam on GWB and congress in general. The book was written before Obama was in office.

 

[Guest]

troutfly - 2/12/2010 8:08 PM

I love people who are so partisan that they will defend their parties in office regardless of how horrible of a job they are doing in office. For those who dont know yet, Obama has done a horrible job so far and I dont see it getting better in the near future with all his and his cabinets water-headed solutions. My opinion though

Even olbummers strongest allies are speaking out against him. Former VA governor Doug Wilder is calling for olbummer to fire his top advisers and find some that will do a better job. I guess the obamanation will call Wilder a racist on here. Opps Mr Wilder is a black man too. Wonder what the CFF obamanation has to say about this? HMM!

Let's hear it boys.

 

[Possum]

troutfly - 2/12/2010 7:08 PM

I love people who are so partisan that they will defend their parties in office regardless of how horrible of a job they are doing in office. For those who dont know yet, Obama has done a horrible job so far and I dont see it getting better in the near future with all his and his cabinets water-headed solutions. My opinion though

It amazes me how you find fault in everything he does. What is so horrible. Or do you need to watch more fox news. All BS.

 

[Guest]

Possum - 2/12/2010 9:22 PM

troutfly - 2/12/2010 7:08 PM

I love people who are so partisan that they will defend their parties in office regardless of how horrible of a job they are doing in office. For those who dont know yet, Obama has done a horrible job so far and I dont see it getting better in the near future with all his and his cabinets water-headed solutions. My opinion though

It amazes me how you find fault in everything he does. What is so horrible. Or do you need to watch more fox news. All BS.

it amazes me how some of you still view olbummer as the saviour of the world. Even his closest allies are turning from him. He has yet to do anything but pay back the ones who put him in office. Unemployment continues to rise and all this monster can focus on is the dead healthcare crap.
What will it take for you people to finally admit he is bad for the US?
is your pride so strong that you will allow him to finish us off?
Evidently so.