Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLunker

[Tony M]

Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLunker

Today we see many brands of air vents promoted by salesmen and testimonials directed toward boaters and bass fishermen today (livewell air vents). All air vents basically do the same. Air vents regardless of the product brand, shape and color, type of material all aid in the circulation of ambient air @ ambient air temperature through lockers, compartments, boat bilges, boat cabins and bass boat livewells. Cut holes in the livewell lid and screw the air vents in, a simple, quick, easy install.

A professional opinion from expert fishery biologist:

Not discounting any fisherman testimonials or salesman opinions, I ask a real expert fishery biologist looking for real facts, actually I contacted the big boss-man at the ShareLunker Bass Program in Texas about the efficacy of using livewell air vents and depending on livewell air vents and plain old air to insure minimal safe oxygenation during live bass transports… the ShareLunker Bass Program usually transports only one (1) big mature bass (minimal biomass 13 lbs.) hundreds of miles across Texas in their live haul tanks, not 2,3 or 5 5-10 lb. mature fish transported 7-8 hours in weekend bass tournament in a small aerated bass boat livewell.

If you like, review livewell air vents vs. using 100% compressed oxygen administration and discover their professional opinion and daily practices that always insures transport water quality (specifically minimal safe dissolved oxygen saturation) for transporting 1 bass hundreds of miles for many hours. These fishery biologist are the real expert live bass transporters; there’s no shucking and jiving here because they transport live bass every day for a living. If their bass dies during transport, they lose their job. They know about minimal dissolved oxygen requirements and how to insure the livewell water quality that’s necessary to transport and keep live bass safely and healthy all day across the Great State of Texas.

My original email inquiry sent to:

Kyle Brookshear [email protected]
Subject: Transporting bass-water quality-safe DO saturation with livewell vents - opinion
Kyle Brookshear, ShareLunker Program Coordinator
Texas Freshwater Fisheries Center
5550 FM 2495, Athens TX 75752
[email protected]
Office: (903) 670-2285

I wanted to talk with the expert live bass transporters and figure you folks are the best live bass transporters in Texas. I would appreciate your expert opinion please.
My concern is, will 2 commercial air vents insure safe oxygenation for all my fish in transport. Will 2 air vents eliminate the CO2 and ammonia produced by the fish? Do your biologist use this type air vents for oxygenation when you transport 1 or more Lunker bass across Texas?

I will transporting live mature wild black bass. These bass will be in the haul tank with a closed lid, a livewell. The lid will have 2 air vents for aeration/oxygenation. Stocking density will be 1 lb. fish/1 gal water. haul tank water temp will be 80’sF, tank water volume 30 gal, biomass of black bass 30 lbs. I will add salt to the haul water or a livewell water conditioning product commonly used in bass tournaments.

Total time of captivity trip will be 7-8 hours, travel time 6 hrs, time stopped 2 hrs.
Hauling water will be environmental water, no water temperature change.

I was advised to use this V2-T livewell ventilation system http://www.newproproducts.com/products.html . I was advised that these air vent are a very inexpensive method for providing a continuous flow of oxygen and insure safe oxygenation for my bass. Seems to be an easy, cheap way to insure safe oxygenation, no air pumps, batteries, spray bars, aerators.
___________________________________________________________________________

Mr. Brookshear’s response:

Thank you for your interest in ensuring healthy transport of Largemouth Bass. While I have only been at TFFC for a few months Tony Owens, our Hatchery Manager, who I have copied to this email, can provided you with the best possible answer to your question. Tony has extensive knowledge of proper fish care, treatment, and hauling Largemouth Bass ranging in all sizes, various quantities and distances. So, he will be able to best answer your questions.

Mr. Owen’s response:
Tony Owens
NRS V – Hatchery Manager
Texas Freshwater Fisheries Center
[email protected]
Office # 903-670-2236

I am responding to your email sent to Kyle Brookshear about Largemouth Bass transport.
We do not use the air vent method you described.

To insure your Largemouth Bass arrive healthy and alive, I would suggest getting a cylinder of compressed oxygen, an oxygen regulator, oxygen hose and a micro-bubble oxygen diffuser and put that in your transport tank.

___________________________________________________________________________

Well the short email exchange with the ShareLunker Program was to the point and now we have facts and expert opinion along with bass transport SOP from The ShareLunker Bass Program in Texas about this oxygenation matter 2016.

 

[Tony M]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

A 10 minute Google search…

Compare V-2T livewell vents to Sea-Dog livewell vents for bass boats livewells and bay boat livewells.
V-2T - $45/pair (plastic) vs. Sea Dog - $10/pair Stainless Steel (lo-profile, no obstruction)… a no-brainer.
If you’re going to cut a couple holes in your boat livewell lids, before your spend a lot of money buying a pair of air vents, compare the cost and quality difference between V-2T and the Sea-Dog air vents (plastic vs. 304 Stainless Steel Louvered).

If product costs matters and quality - compared prices between the plastic V-2T vents and the stainless steel Sea-Dog Brand Flat Louvered Vents.

1 pair plastic V-2T air vents $ 44.99

1 pair stainless steel Sea-Dog lo-profile louvered air vents $10.00
http://www.sea-dog.com/groups/1763-louvered-vent

304 Stainless Steel Construction, 4 different sizes
If safety for tournament bass in your bass boat livewells matters, then unnecessary obstructions inside livewell must be consider. Can livewell vents injure my tournament bass? The lo-profile louvered SS air Sea-Dog air vents present no obstructions in the livewell that can injure or harm tournament gamefish unlike the V-2T air vent obstruction that extends several inches below the livewell lid into the livewell.

The Sea-Dog price, durability, lo-profile (tournament fish safety) and high quality 304 stainless steel vents are impressive.
Livewell air vents are available on the internet. I do not sell nor do I promote any particular brand of air vents for boat livewells. I did spend a few minutes on the net comparing these 2 different brands of air vents that used in boat livewells and will certainly share with you what I found.

 

[Judy]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

Tony,

The SeaDog vent you are referring to is not for a livewell. The patented V-T2 Livewell Ventilation System is the only ventilation system on the market for livewell fish care.

The V-T2 is a ventilator and not a vent like the Sea Dog vent. The V-T2 allows for a continuous flow of air in and out of the livewell at the same time. This allows for oxygen-rich atmospheric air to enter the livewell and strip out harmful metabolic gases such as CO2. This continuous flow also aides in keeping the livewell much cooler naturally, so anglers no longer have to use ice like before. The Sea Dog vent can only allow one direction of flow.

The reason the V-T2 has an extended sleeve is one not allow water to splash out of the livewell and also it directs the oxygen-rich atmospheric air into the water of the livewell to create a good disruption of the water surface to allow good oxygen diffusion and gas exchange. The bottom of the V-T2 is rounded so if in the event a fish bumps into them, they will not be harmed. In fact, hooking fish and using culling tags do much more harm.

The reason the V-T2 is not made of Stainless Steel is that the louvers on the V-T2 flex down and back up when an angler steps on and off of them. A rigid material would increase the risk of tripping someone.

If anyone wants more information on the V-T2, I welcome the questions. I am the inventor of the V-T2.

Thank you Tony for giving us the opportunity to share the scientific facts about the V-T2 Livewell Ventilation System. This is how anglers will learn about it more and why we have the national endorsement of BASS Conservation Director and author of Keeping Bass Alive, Gene Gilliland as well as many top touring Pro's.</p>

Here is a video from Mark Menendez. Mark has a Fishery Biology degree and refused our sponsorship until he ran the V-T2's for an entire season first.</p>

https://youtu.be/fXwU-ml0AXY</p>

 

[Hook1]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

I have a question about the V-T2. It seems to me, that the vent would protrude way down below the actual livewell lid. What harm would it do to cut some excess off of the bottom so it doesn't stick down into the livewell so far?

 

[DLR]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

I would guess the idea of the long vent tunes are to get a more thorough ventilation of bad air and introduction of O2. If you shorten them you're just skimming off the top of the livewell. I have a pair and would not do without now.

 

[FishingwithRusty]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

they really don't stick that far down into the livewell and depending on where your overflow outlet is the likelihood of fish actually hitting them is REALLY low. ive installed these on my last 5 boats(2 skeeters, 2 stratos and 1 javelin) and wont be without them. since ive started using them I haven't had a livewell with the foam/froth on the top of it that I used to because all the gases that form the foam are evacuated by the vents. to the OP, the vents DO NOT substitute a recirculating pump or some other method of injecting oxygen into the water but are used in addition to. I have fished a lot of tournaments over the years and fish care is critical, I haven't had a fish die that wasn't hooked bad in a long time. if you see me out on chick or wherever youre welcome to stop by and look at them.

 

[Tony M]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

Learning opportunity are really great, just ask.
Ambient air ventilation, cool air in the winter cools water – hot air in the summer heats water. You say, “…. a continuous flow of air in and out of the livewell at the same time. This allows for ‘oxygen-rich atmospheric air’ to enter the livewell…”
J - I am missing something here and need your technical clarification. What in the world does “oxygen-enriched atmospheric air” actually mean to you? Clearly you really like to use this term in your advertisement.
SCUBA divers that dive mixed-gases understand the term “oxygen-enriched atmospheric air,” fire fighters doctors and nurses clearly understand the term.
To be more specific, what is the oxygen concentration of your oxygen-enriched air coming through your air vents into the livewell? Have you ever tested the air inside your livewell to confirm that the air is actually enriched with oxygen or no?
If you have tested the oxygen concentration of the air inside the livewell with An oxygen meter like meters used in hospitals or industry, what is the % oxygen concentration you found in the air inside your livewell?

Rusty- From your direct experience with dirty foam, I would really like to know what kind of gases inside your livewell actually caused the ugly, frothy foam before you used air vents?
Is it dirty gases, dirty water or dirty fish that make the dirty foam on the water surface? I have seen that nasty foam you speak of in livewells containing bass and live bait too… I’ve see so much brown foam you could not see the water sometimes by 3 PM in summer livewells. I have never seen that brown foam in livewells in the cold winter months.

 

[FishingwithRusty]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

Tony, great questions, I can not tell you exactly which gases cause the foam but have to assume they a metabolic gasses from the fish as the foam does not occur without fish present. what clarity or quality didn't seem to have an affect on the whether or not the foam occurred prior to the vents as ive had it happen on clear clean lakes and dirty muddy waters.

 

[SHane]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

Don't they make some tablets that dissolve and put oxygen in the water? How are these?

 

[Aries 181]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

Since I don't have a recirculating pump in my boat and will be fishing club and CFF TX's
next year, I figure I need all the help available to try and keep any fish caught from dying
before being weighed.

The V-T2 seems like cheap insurance to me. I'll be ordering a pair from TW tomorrow.
Does anyone here have the correct size hole saw I can borrow so I don't have to buy one?

Bill

 

[Hook1]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

These will not replace a functional recirculating pump.

 

[FishingwithRusty]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

I've got the 3" hole saw and a set of vents. Pm me

 

[Aries 181]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

Hook1 - 11/24/2016 12:15 PM

These will not replace a functional recirculating pump.

No doubt, but since all I have is manual and auto on a 5 min timer then the vents can't hurt a fish's survival chances, now can they.

Bill

 

[Hook1]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

So does that mean that you have an aereator that you can run on a timer? In that case you'd be fine I would think.

 

[Tony M]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

SHane - 11/23/2016 11:20 AM

Don't they make some tablets that dissolve and put oxygen in the water? How are these?

Yes… but there are serious water quality issues to deal with you chose to use these chemicals… Acid /base disturbances, respiratory acidosis, > carbonic Acid, metabolic acidosis and other deadly things.

OXYGEN TABLETS ARE KILLERS IN livewells and bait tank water – 10% CO2
Whys that? Oxygen tablets will increase dissolved oxygen concentration in water for a short period, but they also produce 10% carbon dioxide (CO2) and hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) ? water (H2O) and Oxygen (O2).

FACT: 10.0 % CO2 = 100,000 PPM dissolved CO2

Carbon dioxide is more soluble in water than oxygen. Sustained 10% carbon dioxide concentrations produces anesthesia and tissue suffocation (hypoxia).

Dissolved carbon dioxide combines with water forming carbonic acid, which increases the acidity of bait tank water. Acidic bait tank water increases the toxic effects of ammonia negatively affecting fish health.

Elevated carbon dioxide concentrations in fish blood also compromise the oxygen transport effectiveness of the red blood cell – increased CO2 livewell water = increased CO2 in red blood cells = less available oxygen in the red blood cell = hypoxia.

Bohr Effect – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_effect
Hemoglobin’s (red blood cell) oxygen binding affinity is inversely related both to acidity and the concentration of carbon dioxide.

But, livewell water quality management is always your personal choice, chose wisely.

 

[Aries 181]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

Hook1 - 11/25/2016 7:15 AM

So does that mean that you have an aereator that you can run on a timer? In that case you'd be fine I would think.

Yes it does.

Bill

 

[Judy]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

Tony,
Oxygen rich atmospheric air means just that. Atmospheric air contains 210,000 parts per million of oxygen. Water carries a very low solubility of oxygen than atmospheric air always. For example, water at 70 degrees F at 100% dissolved oxygen would carry 8 ppm. Biologists tell us that for our interest bass need a minimum of 5 ppm of dissolved oxygen. Yes, warmer water will hold less oxygen than cooler, but even if the water temperature was a 113F (which we never see), water at this temperature would hold 6.6ppm at 100% saturation. Still good level of DO for our fish.

Here is the definition of atmospheric diffusion. I think this will help you understand why atmospheric air is oxygen-rich.

Oxygen concentrations are much higher in air, about 21.9% oxygen (210,000ppm), than in water, which is a tiny fraction of 1 percent oxygen. (At 70F - 8ppm)

When air and water meet whether through natural or artificial means oxygen concentrations are much higher in air and this tremendous difference in concentration causes oxygen molecules in the air to dissolve into the water, until the water becomes saturated at 100%.

This is why the V-T2 supports your aerator and recirculator because it creates a continuous flow of atmospheric air. Just how the lakes get their oxygen too.

The V-T2 also air strips the CO2 out continuously. Thank you for explaining how harmful it is for fish. Just changing your water out every couple of hours lets the CO2 build up and the fish have to struggle with it until the next water change. It is best to never let the CO2 levels rise.

Thanks for all the great questions, Tony!

 

[Tony M]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

Your welcome J.

Words Really Do Matter. Alas another fine learning opportunity presents.

Sharing knowledge is fun and educational… I just love new learning opportunities.

Do you really believe that atmospheric air occasionally blowing an air vent in a bass boat livewell only when the boat is moving air vent will create an oxygen-rich [oxygen enriched] environment?

J says, “Here is the definition of atmospheric diffusion. I think this will help you understand why atmospheric air is oxygen-rich.” That’s a great pivot!

American Capitalism offers tremendous opportunity for all the players to make money and making money is the point of Capitalism. Let’s look at this product scientifically… omit pivots… no disrespect intended toward any products, manufacturers or salesmen and women, advertisement or infomercials. The product is an air vent. For $50 the device provides an opportunity to circulate fresh atmospheric air through a bass boat livewell only when the boat is moving, cold air in the winter and hot air in the summer.

I appreciate your definition of atmospheric gas diffusion; but, atmospheric diffusion was not the question, nor the point. This pivot does not help anyone understand anything about oxygen-rich (oxygen enriched) atmospheres in air environments (boat livewell gas spaces) or fire safety issues that always applies and must be considered in oxygen-rich [oxygen enriched] atmospheric environments.

You made no mention of this and of course you should know that a fire on a boat will probably ruin your bass tournament day and will probably cause issues for the tournament directors as well.

Back to the question – What does oxygen-rich [oxygen enriched] atmospheric air really mean to you scientifically?” So let’s stay focused now, words matter.

I am familiar with atmospheric gas diffusion in the atmosphere and in liquids (water). I took 8th grade General Science and High School Chemistry in the 10th grade years back… I still recall the chemistry Gas Laws that control gas diffusion. Ie. Dalton’s Law, Amagat’s law, Henry’s law and the solubility of gases and so on.

You mention NO Fire Safety Warnings and that your air vent produces an oxygen–rich [oxygen enriched] livewell environment.

This is interesting:

Principles of Fire Protection Chemistry and Physics by Raymond Friedman – pg. 252 https://books.google.com/books?id=J...page&q=chemistry gas laws,oxygen-rich&f=false

Fires in Abnormal Environments

Oxygen-Enriched Atmospheres

Normal air contains 21% oxygen by volume. For special purposes, such as undersea operations, in spacecraft or medical chambers [bass boat livewells] it might be desirable to maintain a higher percentage of oxygen. However this higher percentage of oxygen greatly increases the fire hazard.
A higher percentage of oxygen implies a lower percentage of the inert gas nitrogen. This situation causes the flame temperature because the nitrogen, if present, acts to absorb heat. The higher flame temperature has several consequences:
1. The rate of heat transfer from the flame to the surrounding is greater.
2. The flame is less easily quenched by adjacent cold surfaces so the stand-off distance of the flame from surface is less, and the flame can spread more rapidly.
Pg. 252 - Principles of Fire Protection Chemistry and Physics
For gaseous mixtures, the upper flammability limit is dramatically increased with oxygen-enrichment of the atmosphere, but the lower flammability limit
Fires in oxygen enriched atmospheres not only burn hotter and faster, but also, not surprisingly are more difficult to extinguish.
After a little research, I believe that Fire safety is a major issue when dealing with oxygen-rich [oxygen enriched} atmospheres even if the O2-rich atmosphere is in a bass boat livewell.

There's much more scientific data and material addressing fire safety in oxygen enriched [oxygen-rich] atmospheric environments on the net.

Let's learn more science today.

 

[Tony M]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

Hey J, More learning opportunity today...

Air Products - http://www.airproducts.com/~/media/files/pdf/company/safetygram-33.pdf

Oxygen Enriched Classification [Oxygen-Rich]

**“Materials that may not burn in normal air may burn vigorously in an oxygen-rich environment.”
In the United States regulations defining oxygen-enriched [oxygen-rich] atmospheres as those containing more than 23.5% oxygen by volume. (Air atmospheres contain approximately 21% oxygen by volume.] In oxygen enriched atmospheres, the reactivity of oxygen significantly increases the risk of ignition and fire. Materials that may not burn in normal air may burn vigorously in an oxygen-rich environment. Sparks normally regarded as harmless may cause fires. And materials that may burn in normal air may burn hotter flame and propagate at a much greater speed.

In an oxygen enriched [oxygen-rich] environment, fire chemistry starts to change. Materials become easier to ignite because their flammability ranges and their auto-ignition temperatures begin to drop.

This is fun, clicking and learning factual scientific information about oxygen-rich or oxygen enrichment.

I’ll spend another 5 minutes later today Googling, see what else turns up.

This also applies to all those fishermen that are using livewell oxygen generators, oxygenators, compressed oxygen systems, the new Bass Cat "Tiger Tank" oxygen systems coming out 2017, oxygen pills, probably N2O2 and anything else that produces high concentrations of oxygen in bass boat livewells or bait tanks.
Fire safety with oxygen-rich or oxygen enriched livewell environments is clearly a big boating safety deal. If you deal oxygen enrichment [oxygen-rich livewell environments," then you really need to know how to be safe with oxygen-rich atmospheres like hatchery fish transporters, live bait dealers, doctors, nurses, EMT’s, welders, plumbers, aircraft pilots and astronauts.

Are you really, really sure your livewell air vents will create an oxygen-rich [oxygen enriched] atmospheric environment in a bass boat livewell? If it does, then clearly there are serious fire safety issues that need addressing for the bass fisherman's sake.

 

[SHane]

Re: Livewell air vents vs. supplemental oxygen administration with oxygen injection – Texas ShareLun

That's very cool info and something I would have never thought of. Has any manufacturer done anything for safety of these live wells? Wouldn't they need to be a fire proof material with a way to remove excess oxygen before you open it every time? Seems very complicated to be safe.