Two Engineers + One Idea = 6 Hours of Pain

[Guest]

I have seen many pumps come apart! The high pressure pumps that merc uses looses their shape alot quicker than the high volume pump that omc uses and the 3 liter mercs. just my opinion but if you don't crank your engine on the ramp and at home for your buddies to hear with no hose or on the ramp to blow the water out like your not supposed to then changing an omc or bombardier v4 or v6 water pump every year is a waste of money. why is the mercury pump rubber different? because the vanes are shorter and not as plyable therfore they do not last as long! Aftermarket warranty company requires you to change bombardier pumps every 3 years and show proof to keep your warranty. If i had a merc with the small pump i would not run my boat unless i changed the pump every year.

 

[wrechin2]

So you have seen plenty of pumps come apart, So why do you think the pumps come apart? Break down??? Wouldn't replacing the pump prevent that? Isn't that what this is about topic was about? How to PREVENT from having to spend money on a engine??? Like I said...Even the LARGE merc pump MERCURY are wanting to be changed out every year. OMC does not have a set interval to change them, I don't agree about the small pump breaking down quicker, the percentage of "bend" is the same reguardless of diameter. I change the OMC pumps out annually and bi-annually like a merc. That is my practice and my opinion... But what do I know???? Like saying Gm wants the oil to be changed at 7,500 miles but the oil makers say 3,000. Who do you go by? Does changing it more often make more sense? Sure you can go twice as long but what is the end result???

 

[bwolf]

sombody needs to kick him for having a new pump in his hand and NOT replacing it when he was looking at it !!!!!

 

[SpurHunter]

bwolf - 4/3/2009 10:36 AM sombody needs to kick him for having a new pump in his hand and NOT replacing it when he was looking at it !!!!!

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Is there a sign-up sheet for this??emoEvil </p>

 

[Ericb]

quit dogging bprice, i can see me doing the same thing without thinking about it but after reading this ,i want to change mine out right now, cant afford new powerhead or would rather pay 39$ once a year to prevent it. if had'nt read this i would not have known.thanks guys for all the info and yes even opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Guest]

It will cost you more than 39 dollars a year unless you do it yourself! Try about 125 to 150 depending on who does it!

 

[Jason F-18]

emoDoh emoDoh emoDoh emoLaugh emoLaugh

Hmmmmm. Sunds vaguely familiar... Like the time I was going to change the belts on my truck "real quick" . Got in there and realised Yota makes it a little difficult to get to things. So have everything apart and find out there's an more belts than what they sold me at the Parts store. Now what? Wife is at work, don't have an extra car, no neighbors at home. Get on the bike and pedal the 5 miles to the shop. The guy tells me the reason they din't give me the third belt was cause they were out of stock!! Thanks for telling me now!! But, the shop across town has one. Well thanks Dumb A** because they nice 'Vette leaning against the dorr will get me there in a hurry.

Needless to say, 15 miles and two very sore legs later, had the belt (and went ahead and bought the Chilton's manual too) and spend another 3 hours putting it all back together. No time for fishing that nice day.

Lessons are not always easily learned. The biggest lesson is to only publicize about 25% of the moronic things you do when you are by yourself!

 

[wrechin2]

Jason,
You know that most people do their own work. It would cost him about $39. There are some people who try to help people do thier own work. I give alot of people manuals or parts of them to help them. For example I GAVE Brice the MANUAL so he would HAVE the INFO he NEEDED do his own work. When I do change them out I let them watch so THEY can do it theirself later. There are no secrects to it. My OMC Pump changes are $93 parts and labor. That is a repair kit with all gaskets and the wear plate. Labor is taken out of a labor guide. Some labor rates are higher around 80-90 Hr. That would put some at $153 at 80HR. Yes, It depends on who does it.

Guess I need to have a hands on class one day on a OMC V-4/V-6 and let who ever wants to come and watch so it is not such a "Waste of Money" and people woud only be wasting $40 to protect a $5,000 engine. Just my .02

 

[Bubbakat]

I am with Wrenchin2 on this. I change my impeller out every other year and the wear plate every other time I change. If you run where there is a lot of trash in the water It will suck this up under the impeller and wear plate and make grooves in it. This means after a peroid of time losse of water transfer. Ihave chased those impeller parts into the block and it ain't no fun.
How many back down the ramp and fire that engine up for a quick check. That is a no no. Don't take but about 10 to 15 seconds to zap the vanes on the impeller. A little suggestion here if you do decide to change your own use some dish washing liquid to wet that cup and impeller down and hold down on the cup while twisting the shaft CC wise and it will slip right on.
I think I have a floppy here some where with a pictorial I made up of changing one out.

 

[wrechin2]

I use dishsoap. It does make them go in easier and washes right away. I have seen people use grease before and it swells the pump and causes failure. I install in the cup then install on the shaft. Just found that is the easier way for me. Manual wants you to install on shaft then instal the housing, I have fought more with doing it that way.

 

[Bprice]

bwolf, I'm down in Huntsville if you want to come try to kick me yourself!


There has really been some great info on this thread, and I will go back and put the new one back on, after all the tongue lashing and beatings.

 

[wrechin2]

Bprice - 4/5/2009 11:46 PM bwolf, I'm down in Huntsville if you want to come try to kick me yourself! There has really been some great info on this thread, and I will go back and put the new one back on, after all the tongue lashing and beatings.

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Just sharing my experiences. Trying to keep you from having to spend big $$$$ on a failed engine.</p>

Here we are talking about it and I had a Merury 40HP that quit pumping water and the guy brought it to me yesterday and the impeller is shredded. ALOT of the pump is missing and the grate over the inlet is small and none of the pieces are at the bottom. Time to play CSI and find the pieces. Going to do a leakdown test to make sure he didn't hurt the engine so I don't have pull the engine twice. I determinedthe pump failure is from the ears tearing off going down the water. IF it hadfailed due to no water, most or all ofthe pieces would have been in the housing with no water to "push" them into the engine. It melted the housing, but the pump is higher than the water line on plane,so once it broke the last ear off it had no water to lubricate the housing.This could have been PREVENTED but I also have a 140 Suzuki here to rebuild because the guy ran over grass and starved the engine for water. He knew he ran over grass and couldn't let off because it was shallow, when he could let off it was too late. The housing was deformed where it got so hot and the engine got so hot the paint changed colors around the head. ALL of the pieces were still in the housing. It got the rings but doesn't have any gaulding that I can see. The rings just lost their "spring" from overheating and had HIGHleakage an the top 2. Will post pics in a few.</p>

 

[wrechin2]

Pics

 

[Bprice]

James, I really really appreciate your input!

 

[wrechin2]

No problem man! Just trying to help people! The picture is what you are trying to prevent. If it got he engine, then a $20 part is about to cost this guy some major money. Just letting you know what I have seen. I can honestly say i have never rebuilt a engine for a overheat issue when the customer has changed a water pump regularly. Have built a few that the pumps came apart. If this engine is hurt, then that is 2, the suzuki and this merc, for pump failures that I have to rebuild. Not saying a ice bag won't get ya!!!! Have seen that! Guy brought the bag with him! LOL!!!!

 

[soggysod]

wrenchin,
concerning the car oil thing, the oil maker. loses half his buisness if you change your oil at mfg. requested intervals. the car manuf. gm for example warrants that thing for 100k miles, and has their reputation on the line. i would trust their opinion. my dodge has a lifetime warranty, and they still want me to change oil at 7500 miles.
i learned from afellow incharge of a large trucking companys fleet mechanics that changing your oil too soon does have detrimental effects as the oil has to be engineered to last 7500 (not so in deisel but humor me) miles per mfg requirements. they put "packets" of other chemicals in the oil, anti coagulants, acid reducers, moisture reducers, etc. so what happens over the life of the oil, the first 3500 miles, the oil is TOO agressive, and the last 3500 its not agressive enough. too frequent of oil changes will cause the oil to attack the engine, bearings, and seals. doing much more harm than the reccomended oil change interval. keep in mind fleets test oil for metals and materials to determine engine lifespan and such, so this technology is using science not just grandpa's old way of doing it.
and oil is a limited comodity, if everyone would change it half as often it would last twice as long!!!
and for god sakes please recycle your motor oil, just drop it off at oreilleys or autozone or whatev.

i'm not a mechanic, or have a dog in the hunt. but i have researched this, and personally live on a budget, i run cheap oil (whatever oreiley has on special with a free filter) change it every 7500 miles or so, drive the heck out of my vehicles and get lots of miles out of them. my daily driver a subaru i bought new just over a year ago and have 50000 miles on it. i feel the money i save will either help me afford to go fishing, or easily pay for a new engine at 200k miles which i would probly need even if i ran the 8bucks a quart synthetic with 3000mi oil changes.

BUT............i have to agree on the waterpump, i try to change it once a year no matter what. its cheap and easy (once you do it once) and will probly save a fishing trip, some sanity, and keep me from getting sunburnt because i cant get back to the dock. been there done that!!!

soggysod


soggysod

 

[foodsaver]

Brandon thanks for bringing the issue to my attention. I just got mine changed this weekend. James does a good job.

 

[wrechin2]

Soggysud, Not to start a oil argumnet......I am a ASE Master mechanic with L1 (advanced driavbility) and a Chrysler master Certified mechanic. I worked at Prebul before all that crap went down. Depending on what year/ model you have, we started putting oil change monitors on the vehiles that go off around 2500-3500 miles. If you look at your scheduled maintenance for your DODGE you will see there is 2 schedules. Schedule A and B. There is criteria for which to go by. If you do just one item in the list like short trips of less than 10 miles at a time, stop and go driving, trailer towing, and a few other things like that then you go schedule B which is changing it every 3,000 miles. I have never seen a vehicle around here be able to fall under schedule A which will have either 6,000 or 7,500 oil change interval. What happens when you do the short trips is the moisture (sweat) staying in the engine due to the fact the engine never reaches operating temps, or long enough, to evaporate the water out of the oil and the oil sludges up. That is the issues that we have with the 2.7L engines installed in alot of the cars. It is a all aluminium engine and it runs excessively cool and sludges up. But changing the oil at 3K on those engines does keep them from sludging up as bad, some actually don'tdependingon their driving habits. Changing oil manufactures on each oil change, can cause sludging from the differenes in the oils base (wax). You do have the lifetime warranty, if your engine comes in sludged, it is not going to get covered under warranty. We have delt with this too many times. Chrysler considers that neglect. Even though you were changing the oil, you will have a fight on your hands to get it covered. If a dealership sends back a sludged engine under warranty, Chyrsler will reject the claim and the dealership pays for your engine, and they aren't going to pay for you a engine. We have actually caught customers taking thier vehicles from dealership to dealership trying to get it covered. They didn't know that the same Distric manger was looking at them and they make the final decision for Chrysler. If you only have reciepts for where you buy oil and change it yourself and the engine sludges, they can easily assume it was for one of you other vehicles. If you have it changed at a place that has you vin number on it then sometimes they will cover a sludged engine. Not trying to be smart or anything, I know this for a fact on your Dodge but I don't know about your other vehicles. You will also have to take it in at set intervals for a inspection to keep the lifetime warranty. It is in your owners manual. If you don't have one let me know and I can tell you where you can get one in PDF.</p>

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One of the reasons the fleets use oil labs is to save money, aren't we all!!! We had to do that in the military. We tested their ability to know what was what and sent them 5 samples from the same vehicle. They came back and told us which vehicle we pulled it out of and that all 5 were from that vehicle. They can actually dermined (spelling) all the materials in the oil and have records of what % of what particles and can make basicly DNA of that vehicle. YES, diesel oil has a different life. This is what you will find in most trucking fleets. That is the first time I have ever heard of changing oil hurting the engine in my 18 years of being a professional mechanic. Can you give me any web sites where this is stated? Or is this the opinion of the fleet manager? Not wanting to start anything. Just that is hard to believe. I have to go many schools (training) for my job to keep up to date on all the new and older stuff being updated and have never once heard that. The oil change monitor on my 08 Ram goes off at around 2500-3000 miles due to the fact it is duty cycle based and goes off according to driving habits. My wife make many less than 3 mile trips taking our kids to school. If it was hurting the engines, why would Chysler have a system on their vehicles having you to change it as litte as 2500 miles? I am including a page out of my owners manual describing the system for you. ONCE again, not trying to start a oil argument. Just stating facts about Chyrsler, Dodge, and Jeep and would like to see that information. </p>

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Well, the little boat that the water pump pic came out of did get hurt. Found pieces of the pump between the engine and the midsection. and 4 scuffed pistons. So that is 2 that I have to rebuild for water pump failures here. Sad thing is he hasn't had the boat that long. Guess we need to add another time to replaced the pump, If you just bought a boat. They guy he bought the boat from told him that he had just put a pump in it, and as you see it came apart. Too many times people say," I put one on new" then you ask when?? Their response is," about 3 years ago..."</p>

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Foodsaver... Nice to meet you. I will probably take you up on your offer one day!!!</p>

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[wrechin2]

Here is the operation out of the service manual. Read the 2nd paragraph from the bottom. I am looking for where it was printed that it would come on as little as 2500 and late as 3500. It was on the chrysler data base and I just have to find it.

 

[soggysod]

ok, well i wont argue with you as you clearly have more knowledge in this matter than i. but i have run across a few oil faq websites and found some info showing that, i have also seen test results from blackstone labs on other boards ls1.com, nasoic.com showing their reccomendation based on the packets left in oils for running up to 25k miles on an oil change. i also have seen that some toyota corollas reccomend 1 year oil changes unlimited mileage. and mercedes reccomending 36k mile changes. all this seems crazy to me, i just change mine on the subie and my old 5.9 2500 every 5k miles since its easy to keep up with. but always the on sale oil.
concerning the 08 hemi i do follow the oil life monitor, it typically puts me at about 5k miles, though it has been as high as 8k and as low as 2k.

one funny thing to note, i had an acura in the past with an oil life monitor, and it usually went well over 10k, i always would think it was broken and about that time it would come on. about 250000 miles on that one when i sold it too.

i probly saved a ton versus 3500 mile oil changes with synthetic at the dealer!!!!

oh the site that i had seen test results from was http://www.blackstone-labs.com/index.html

i do have a hard time believing that in this economy,with reciepts or dealer oil changes, if i change oil when my monitor tells me to, and take my dodge to the dealer every 5 years for the free inspection, that sludge or not they would try to deny a warranty claim on an engine, the engine would cost a heck of alot less than the lawyer fees. let alone the blasting and bad press they would take from a disgruntled customer with a good case.

that being said, i had another 5.9 gas i ran walmart oil in with 5-10k oil change intervals that i swapped out at 225k miles because the tranny went bad and i got the engine and tranny cheap enough i just swapped em both. i tore that engine down with the intent on making it a stroker (a project for later) and the engine looked beautiful only the valve covers were dirty well and the main caps. that truck had been ridden hard and put up wet its whole life!
but thats why i love mopar that is until their service dept makes me go elsewhere

soggysod