Half of Americans dont pay taxes?

[rstewart]

Bfish,

My question is why is a family of four only earning $18K per year? I mean come on now, my high schooler earns damn near half of that and he works less than 20 hours a week! And please don't give me that crap about that's all they can earn. If that's true, who do they have to blame for that? Only themselves. Unless they have a physical or mental defect there is NO EXCUSE for this, NONE. Poor decisions WILL come back to bite you in the ass, eventually. It obvious if they are only earning $18K per year they have made some very, very, very poor decisions. Now they reap the rewards of their efforts or lack thereof.

 

[Bfish]

rstewart, while I totally agree with you get what you sow statement. However, if the head of the house makes minimum wage (7.25) and works 40 hrs/wk every week of the year, he will only bring home 15,080 which is about 7,000 below poverty level. Even if the other parent worked 18 hrs/wk (at min. wage) they would still be below the poverty line. More and more high paying jobs are leaving the country and being replaced by minimum wage service jobs. Try working 40 hrs at Wal-mart, they won't let you.

The days of someone getting a high school education and having a trade to go into is disappearing fast. Heck, lots of college degrees are worthless, unless you go on and get a masters too. The legacy of those that are left behind now, will be felt by their children.

 

[Bfish]

beetlespin - 4/19/2010 6:47 PM

Have a flat tax across the board. Same percentage whether you make $10,000 a year or $1,000,000,000 a year.

Rub is that the 47% who don't pay income taxes now, will have to start paying 11%. While I am all for people paying their fair share, however what do you think will happen when they have to start paying 11%? IMO you will see a tremendous amount of bankruptcy, in those that are currently living paycheck to paycheck. Increasing the numbers of people below the poverty line, is never a good fiance policy.

 

[SpurHunter]

It really sucks that we force these folks to suffer through a minimum wage job......oh wait a minute, that right its a free country, so they CAN get a job making more than that, I almost forgot!

AGAIN, please, please, please, somebody tell me whay the rest of the us should help pay for their OWN decisions to have kids, smoke, drink, have cell phones for themselves and their kids, and then cry that they are only making minimum wage?

 

[SpurHunter]

Bfish - 4/21/2010 9:44 AM

beetlespin - 4/19/2010 6:47 PM Have a flat tax across the board. Same percentage whether you make $10,000 a year or $1,000,000,000 a year.

Rub is that the 47% who don't pay income taxes now, will have to start paying 11%. While I am all for people paying their fair share, however what do you think will happen when they have to start paying 11%? IMO you will see a tremendous amount of bankruptcy, in those that are currently living paycheck to paycheck. Increasing the numbers of people below the poverty line, is never a good fiance policy.

</p>

Do yourself a favor and log on to Daveramsey.com and learn how many people are not only making it on minimum wages, but are debt free and got that way while making minimum wage. It CAN be done, but Americans LIKE to live beyond their means, and then they cry foul when it comes to bite in the arse. </p>

</p>

</p>

 

[Bfish]

SpurHunter - 4/21/2010 9:46 AM

It really sucks that we force these folks to suffer through a minimum wage job......

Your talking about 1/4 of the hourly work force, not just a few. Yes lazy bums suck but you really think that the 25% all enjoy min. wage work?

 

[SpurHunter]

No, it sucks making minimum wage, or at least it did when I made it, so you know what I did? I worked harder, moved up with that company, and when that wasnt enough, I looked for a different job that paid more, and worked even harder for them.

If a high school dropout can do it, I am sure 25% of the country can do it as well.

 

[Bfish]

Spur, glad your living the American dream. Do you think the same opportunities exist today, that were there 20 years ago? Especially in regards to moving up the chain, as we may have a fundamental difference of opinion.

 

[SpurHunter]

I am not sold.
My 16 yr old son has been working for Capt D's for 6 weeks, they are already talking about a raise for him and more responsibility. Guess it just runs in the family??
emoScratch

 

[Bfish]

Good for him. I am sure you instilled a good work ethic in him, and provide him lots of support along the way.

With his raise (and if he were working 40 hrs a week) do you honestly think he could pay rent, buy his food, make his car payment (got to have transportation to work), pay the utilities, have car insurance, and health insurance. I am assuming no renters insurance and no money spent for work clothes.

At $9/hr=$18720 annual ($3640 more than min wage of $7.25). Now assume that no FICA or Social Security or any other deductions, at the proposed 11% "fair" tax, his take home would be 16,660.80.

Let's assume $500 rent +$50 utilities (no deposit), leaving $10,060.80

How much food does a young person eat, let's say $80/wk. Leaving 5900.80

Car payment, $100/mo w/ insurance at $50/mo. Leaving 4,100.80 (actually would be higher if you include gas money needed).

Health insurance say $60/mo (which is really cheap), Leaving 3380.8/yr or 281.73/mo disposable income.

At $281/mo pretty much does not allow very much for cable, computer, and/or phone (house not cell). As you still have to pay for cloths and laundry, car maintenance, and fishing gear.

Looks like he might make out okay, just barely treading above (that is assuming my conservative cost estimates are not unrealistically low). That is until his car breaks down or insurance rates go up, or inflation goes up, or his employer cuts him back to 32 hr/wk or he burns his hand in the frier and can't work for 3 weeks (I don't think workman comp will pay full wages, not sure though), or he has a kid (and possible a non-working spouse). The last one is a real dozie, as that also makes your health insurance go up and adds more to the grocery bill. It does not take much of a life event to end up as a debtor.

 

[SpurHunter]

So if I get you right, a person in that situation should not pay the same tax rate as you or I, or the other half of the country, in fact WE should not only supliment their income in the form of tax pre-bates, (earned income "rebates" etc), but we should welcome higher tax rates to help them out?

Wow... (can I borrow that phrase from Danny?)

 

[SpurHunter]

Bfish - 4/21/2010 10:43 AM Do you think the same opportunities exist today, that were there 20 years ago? Especially in regards to moving up the chain, as we may have a fundamental difference of opinion.

</p>

Actually I do think thinks its not only the same, buteven betteropportunities than 20 years ago. The American dream is still alive, you work hard, you prosper in this country. I don't think that will go away anytime soon. The only group that is saying its dead, is Liberal politicians, and they are using that garrbage to scare more folks into submision and to gain more and more power over the population. "The more you have to depend on the government,the more dependant you become on the governmet" </p>

Break the cycle folks!</p>

 

[Guest]

Bfish - 4/21/2010 10:56 AM

SpurHunter - 4/21/2010 9:46 AM

It really sucks that we force these folks to suffer through a minimum wage job......

Your talking about 1/4 of the hourly work force, not just a few. Yes lazy bums suck but you really think that the 25% all enjoy min. wage work?

It is very doubtful to me that ANYBODY making minimum wage is happy with that amount. The problem is that the vast majority will not do the time nor make the sacrifices necessary to move up and make more money. They want it handed to them because there parents or friends or whomever makes more than them. They think they are just as worthy but never stop to think of the sacrifices the other folks made to get where they are.
I grew up on welfare and surplus food then food stamps when they came out. I found out early on that I did NOT want to live my life that way when I grew up. I started working at any and everything I could to make money because there simply was not any for anyone to give me. Worked a 10 hour night every night in a weld shop and went to college full time during the day. All paid for by me with absolutely no government assistance. Some days all I could afford to eat was potted meat but I did it and did not complain because again I knew no one was going to hand me squat.
There may not be as many opportunities today as there were 20 years ago but there are opportunities to be had if people will get off their rump and dig. People today listen to politicians promising the world without any sacrifice. Well I tell you it never has happened and it never will.

 

[Bfish]

Spurhunter,

Nope not what I am saying. I am just pointing out a flaw of the "fair"tax plan.

The 47% that don't pay income taxes now and the few hovering just above; If/when the "fair" tax is implemented, then they will below the poverty level. I honestly think that the flat/"fair" tax will cause more people to dip into poverty, widening the gap between the haves and have nots. The middle class is gone, they have separated into upper middle and lower middle, with the lower middle hovering right above poverty and the upper middle seeing tremendous increase in wealthy (and approaching what was consider wealthy in the past generations). All the while the rich get uber-rich.

If/when more dip into the poverty level it cost not just monetarily but also at the societal level too.

I have no solution but I firmly believe that all the flat/vat/"fair" taxes that I have seen are worse for the US in the long run, than the current system (which is definitely flawed and needs improving/revision).

 

[SpurHunter]

No argument from me the system is flawed and needs to be change RIGHT NOW.

I do think your splitting hairs with your characterization of upper/lower middle class distinctions. Go take a personal survey of 100 families that fall "just" under the so-called poverty levels. Im not talking about dirt-poor, zero income folks either. I bet you will find they: eat out, have heat and air conditioning in their house, carry cell phones, have cable TV, hi-speed internet, car payments, smoke, drink, and many other luxuries. I also bet, most by a huge margin, dont have a garden or procure their own meats, fish, etc. Then tell me that 20, 30, or 40 years ago, the same "group" of people listed under the so-called poverty line lived the same lifestyle?

 

[Bfish]

cheez - 4/21/2010 2:00 PM]

It is very doubtful to me that ANYBODY making minimum wage is happy with that amount. The problem is that the vast majority will not do the time nor make the sacrifices necessary to move up and make more money.

Again I am not talking about the lazy bums (and there are lots of them); surely there has to be some more bootstrap grabbers around?

I am specifically thinking service industry here, how does one move up the corporate ladder at say Mall-Wart? greeter, to cashier, then after 4 years you get to work 40 hours, then you can get a $2/hr raise to manage a section of the store. Sorry but I just don't see the advancement in the service industry. The pyramid has too large of base and too pointy of a top, IMO. Manufacturing/Industrial jobs are replacing lots of the previous entry level job positions with robots, that is if the choose to stay here rather than use cheaper labor elsewhere.

 

[shiftworker]

i have a friend thats gets a gov't check each month and works for cash on the side, wife too, and they have a couple kids too.... so they get wick (or however you spell it). my wife and i are fortunate to both have good jobs, and i am thankful for that. however, my friend has a new truck, she has a new car, they have a new house, he has a boat nicer than most people.... so yes, our system sucks... i mine as well not pay taxes and just take him one of my and wifes checks each month... i love him to death, but i find myself kinda pissed at him while im working all week and he's on the water...... i guess you can afford it to spend my money i send each week... i could go on and on..... simply, system sucks... and its getting worse...

 

[Bfish]

SpurHunter - 4/21/2010 2:17 PM
Then tell me that 20, 30, or 40 years ago, the same "group" of people listed under the so-called poverty line lived the same lifestyle?

In 1980 family of four (2 under 18) poverty level was 8,351. When adjusted to 2009 inflation level equals 21,461.87, which is pretty dang close to the 22,050. I really don't think the additional $588.13 annually is adding a whole new group.

But lets say your right for second, the poverty level is living a better lifestyle. But didn't the lifestyle of the middle class move upward at a much greater rate. (Scroll back up the page to the quantiles that I posted). The upper middle income (31%) over time rose at a much higher rate (3x) than the lower middle (18%) and lower (11%) quantiles.

 

[Guest]

Bfish - 4/21/2010 3:21 PM

cheez - 4/21/2010 2:00 PM]

It is very doubtful to me that ANYBODY making minimum wage is happy with that amount. The problem is that the vast majority will not do the time nor make the sacrifices necessary to move up and make more money.

Again I am not talking about the lazy bums (and there are lots of them); surely there has to be some more bootstrap grabbers around?

I am specifically thinking service industry here, how does one move up the corporate ladder at say Mall-Wart? greeter, to cashier, then after 4 years you get to work 40 hours, then you can get a $2/hr raise to manage a section of the store. Sorry but I just don't see the advancement in the service industry. The pyramid has too large of base and too pointy of a top, IMO. Manufacturing/Industrial jobs are replacing lots of the previous entry level job positions with robots, that is if the choose to stay here rather than use cheaper labor elsewhere.

A friend of mine works at Wal-Mart. She started out as a stocker working nights for minimum wage and only 20 hours per week. She showed up for work on time when she was scheduled. Did not ask for her birthday or anniversary off. Never went in late or laid out for any reason. She did not gripe and complain about the low pay/hours. They started giving her more hours after about 3 months. At 6 months they started giving her raises. I will skip the rest but she has now worked for Wal-Mart just over 3 years. She makes $15 plus per hour and has benefits. Granted she is not by any means rich but she kept her nose clean and EARNED what Wally gave her.
People CAN pull themselves up when they decide to do it. If they are handed just enough to get by then that is all they will ever do in most cases.
One more thing. This woman is not a supervisor of any kind.

 

[Bfish]

cheez, good for her, but is that the typical path or an exception? I tend to think it is an exception.