I'm confuse ..

[Possum]

Sniperchoke - 11/29/2009 10:08 PM

Actually history does support my theory. Between 1787 and 1930 our country saw both mild to severe economic downturns. These downturns ranged from 1-7 years. During that time there was no thought of the congress or gov't enacting any type of economic stimulus package, jobs programs or corporate handouts. Probably because there is no constitutional authority to do so. It took the Hoover and Roosevelt administration and a derelict supreme court to initiate an unconstitutional intervention into our economy that turned a 2-3 year downturn in the economy into the great depression that lasted until after WWII. The best example is the 1921 recession where wholesale prices, industrial production and manufacturing employment fell by 30 percent. There was very little gov't intervention and by early 1922 the economy naturally recovered and we were off to the roaring 1920's. History can show us our mistakes but no one takes the time to look.

Are you kidding me? Where did you get that information from snip? From 1787 to 1930 our government did give hand outs. How about 660 acres to the railroad for every 1 mile of track they laid. How about 160 acres to anyone that would move out west. (Homestead act.) How about Vanderbuilt, Carnige, Rockefellar, and Pullman. Who used the government to alow small business to go out and buy cheap like you say, Become Vertically and horizontally intergrated creating monopalies to control prices. While treating labor like crap. Big Business using big money to defeat any kind of labor laws. As far as government intervention causing the problem of the great depression, well guess what the government didn't do anything, they let banks fail, solvent businesses fail, and that is why we had 30plus % unemployment, it was a domino effect. If it was not for mass government spending during WWII who knows what would have happened. The reason we naturally recovered in 1921, how about WWI,nothing natural about that, again mass government spending. It was a different animal all together back then because we were not even a developed country until 1920. Also another thing you or who ever wrote that, fails to realize is that several things happend during that time to cause an increase in production. Electricity, automobile, the Bessimer process that created a different cheap way to make steel, which lead to the creation of many other industries allowing people to leave farms and move to cities. Really it wasn't until the 1920's that America really began to demand modern consumer goods. Working on farms, had no need or money to buy. That is why Roosevelts vision of TVA was so important to the South. It created cheap electricity, which attracted businesses, along with viable transportation and cheap labor as people left their farms for better paying jobs. All of which allowed to now afford consumer goods and increase demand, create more jobs, and get the snowball effect going the other way. The South plain and simple was a new market for consumer goods. TVA played a major role.

 

[Sniperchoke]

What do you mean the gov't didnt do anything? What is not taught in history books is the Great Depression was caused by a massive government failure. The most important part of that failure were the actions by the Federal Reserve Bank that led to the contraction of the money supply by 25 percent. Then, in the name of saving jobs, Congress enacted the Smoot-Hawley Act in June 1930, which increased U.S. tariffs by more than 50 percent. Other nations retaliated and world trade collapsed. U.S. unemployment rose from 8 percent in 1930 to 25 percent in 1933. In 1932, the Herbert Hoover administration and a Democratic Congress imposed the largest tax increase in U.S. history, raising the top tax rate on income from 25 percent to 63 percent. The Roosevelt administration followed these destructive policies with New Deal legislation that massively regulated the economy and extended the Great Depression to after World War II.

 

[beetlespin]

Agree with foodsaver and sniperchoke. Very well said. Possum, WWI was over before 1921.

 

[Possum]

Sniperchoke - 11/30/2009 12:48 AM

What do you mean the gov't didnt do anything? What is not taught in history books is the Great Depression was caused by a massive government failure. The most important part of that failure were the actions by the Federal Reserve Bank that led to the contraction of the money supply by 25 percent. Then, in the name of saving jobs, Congress enacted the Smoot-Hawley Act in June 1930, which increased U.S. tariffs by more than 50 percent. Other nations retaliated and world trade collapsed. U.S. unemployment rose from 8 percent in 1930 to 25 percent in 1933. In 1932, the Herbert Hoover administration and a Democratic Congress imposed the largest tax increase in U.S. history, raising the top tax rate on income from 25 percent to 63 percent. The Roosevelt administration followed these destructive policies with New Deal legislation that massively regulated the economy and extended the Great Depression to after World War II.

The governments failure was that there was not enough regulation on businesses. You are right the gov't did contract the money supply, which is why we have increased the money supply this go around with loans. World trade had already colapsed by the 1930's. Raising tariffs might have made thing worse, but did so to protect american industry. I don't know were you are getting this information, but plain and simple. When people made a run on the banks because we did not have FDIC, causing bank failures that had nothing do do with being bad banks. You hit the nail on the head with money supply, I think that was the whole point of our conversation, and that is what I meant when I said the government did not do anything. Had they bought bonds from banks, like now, many businesses that were fine would have made it.

I know WWI was over by 1921, but still had effects. Until 1920 most people in US were subsistant farmers. Hard to compare pre 20's to present. Like our conversation though.

 

[Guest]

I am enjoying this history lesson, keep it up.

 

[beetlespin]

Doc1 - 11/30/2009 1:11 PM

I am enjoying this history lesson, keep it up.

Weren't you a Colonel in WWI??

 

[Guest]

beetlespin - 11/30/2009 12:31 PM

Doc1 - 11/30/2009 1:11 PM I am enjoying this history lesson, keep it up.

Weren't you a Colonel in WWI??

</p>

How did you find that out?</p>

 

[Sniperchoke]

Here is some more history for you. Most Americans think the Great Depression was caused by the stock market crash in October of 1929. This was not the cause. The stock market had regained all of its losses by April of 1930. Govt was the cause. To be specific Hoover, Roosevelt and the democratic congress decisions caused the depression to be lengthy and more severe. I would hope we could learn from our mistakes but the current administration either does not care or is to naive.

 

[Guest]

Sniper, I see you are trying very hard to rewrite history, black friday didn't happen, it was the democrats fault, keep digging. When i was a kid just starting to work in the chattanooga area, the early 60's, I asked an older fellow who I rode to work with what were all of the people pushing the wooden carts all over chattanooga was for and he said these were Hoovercarts, named after Herbert Hoover, these wern't called Roosevelt's carts. People were still pushing these carts all over chattanooga, picking up discarded rags, pieces of steel, wood, anything that could be turned into a dime or so. Ask around, talk to some older people and see it wasn't a bed of roses.

 

[Possum]

Sniperchoke - 11/30/2009 1:07 PM

Here is some more history for you. Most Americans think the Great Depression was caused by the stock market crash in October of 1929. This was not the cause. The stock market had regained all of its losses by April of 1930. Govt was the cause. To be specific Hoover, Roosevelt and the democratic congress decisions caused the depression to be lengthy and more severe. I would hope we could learn from our mistakes but the current administration either does not care or is to naive.

The stock market crash is not what caused the great depression, you are right there, it might have started it. It was people making a run on the banks to take there money out, banks were shut down and only a few most solvent were alowed to open. Governments, FED mistake is they should have made loans, or word today"Bailed out the banks" Many business closed because they could not gain operating capital. Which lead to more unemployment, which lead to less demand, less investment and increased unemployment. See that is what we have learned from the depression. We have learned from history. If the gov't msde it more severe it is because they did not do enough.

But, lets call it what it is, your theory is what they call classical economic theory. You think market forces will correct themselves, we need no gov't intervention and so on. People in this country really need to revisit your era of politics and economic phylosophy. Do away with all the safety nets, Welfare, Unemployment, FDIC, Social security, price cealings, floors. Do away with all labor laws, public education and so on. Basically go back to being a third world country, like we were when clasical policies dominated this country. Were the Vanderbuilts, Carnigies, and so on controlled all the weath, while the rest worked for slave wages. Well I have learned from history, and I am not naive, And I also appreciate all the folks that fought tooth and nail to get the standard of leaving and economic security to the middle and lower class, of this country. Those harsh conditions is what lead people in Europe to seek alternative gov't in the 30's, thus leading to WWII.

 

[Sniperchoke]

Yeah and look what it got them. They looked to socialist policy and it gave them the Nazis and Hitler who killed over 20 million people. All this in the name of Govt control and socialism.

 

[Sniperchoke]

And Doc, black Friday did happen but the stock market had regained all its losses in less than a year. Those are facts these facts are absolute truths and part of our history. Im not making this up feel free to look it up. So it was not the crash that caused a 20 year depression because deduction tells us that if it was attributed to the stock market it would have rebounded in April of 1930. Also if you read my post I gave Hoover his credit by all accounts he was just another spineless politician who sold out his principals for a re-election bid.

 

[Possum]

Sniperchoke - 11/30/2009 9:25 PM

Yeah and look what it got them. They looked to socialist policy and it gave them the Nazis and Hitler who killed over 20 million people. All this in the name of Govt control and socialism.

No they looked to Facist military control with the promice of Utopia. By the way almost 25 million in Russia alone, 20 million in Europe. There was nothing socialist about those governments, they were dictatorships. Don't foget Japan as well, more fascist than dictatorship. Do not have the numbers on the war in the pacific. However, pretty much all a result of failed economic systems. To put it in Red Neck terms, you go into a bar ok (Southern Bar). One guy has all the ladies, and all the beer, and everyone else is drinking water, people are going to follow the guy that kicks his a$$ and throws him out of the bar. Then promises to buy everyone a round as soon as they kick some more A$$. Pretty much what happened in parts of Europe and Russia.

 

[Possum]

Sniperchoke - 11/30/2009 9:33 PM

And Doc, black Friday did happen but the stock market had regained all its losses in less than a year. Those are facts these facts are absolute truths and part of our history. Im not making this up feel free to look it up. So it was not the crash that caused a 20 year depression because deduction tells us that if it was attributed to the stock market it would have rebounded in April of 1930. Also if you read my post I gave Hoover his credit by all accounts he was just another spineless politician who sold out his principals for a re-election bid.

Snip is right on this one Doc, the stock market crash had little to do with the Recession being so severe. In a nut shell he says government did to much, he is correct in the fact that we did raise minimum wage in Roosevelts first 1oo days, dumb move. Lead to more unemployment, he did not mention that so I will. Raising tarriffs, bad move means drove prices up here while closing markets to American goods abroad. My arguement is the government should have made loans to banks that were a victim of unregulated market practices, and banks that were being ran on by people by no fault of there own. (Money was not protected back then by gov't) Almost every Economic think tank will tell you our biggest mistake in the great depression was not making loans to the banks, (open market operations) so the banks could make loans to businesses, some businesses that had contracts but could not operate because of lack of capital. Which lead to more layoffs, and less demand, more layoffs, less demand and so on. Thats my arguement, and I am sticking to it.

 

[Sniperchoke]

Correct me if im wrong but the Nazis were the National Socialist Party or do I have my facts incorrect. The reason why the world's leftists give the world's most horrible murderers a pass is because they sympathize with their socioeconomic goals, which include government ownership and/or control over the means of production. In this country the call is for government control, through regulations, as opposed to ownership. Unfortunately, it matters little whether there is a Democratically or Republican-controlled Congress and White House; the march toward greater government control continues. It just happens at a quicker pace with Democrats in charge.
Possom you say, "Come on, there will never be the kind of socialist oppression seen elsewhere here!" You might be right because Americans have become very compliant with unconstitutional and immoral congressional edicts. But what do you think would happen if some Americans began to rise up and heed Thomas Jefferson's admonition "Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." and decided to disobey unconstitutional congressional edicts?

 

[Guest]

I appreciate the history lessons. My question or the way I see things now a days is that there is very little produced in the USA, almost everything we use every day is imported from china, this means all the US dollars are going to china instead of staying here in the US, after a while we are going to run out of US dollars. Go into any store anywhere and try to find at least one item that is made here in the US. If the products are made here, so are the jobs, most jobs that are found are in the service industry, not manufacturing. All of our clothes and part of our food is imported, probably 90% of our oil, all of our electronics. I could go on and on but you get the picture.

 

[Possum]

Doc1 - 11/30/2009 11:04 PM

I appreciate the history lessons. My question or the way I see things now a days is that there is very little produced in the USA, almost everything we use every day is imported from china, this means all the US dollars are going to china instead of staying here in the US, after a while we are going to run out of US dollars. Go into any store anywhere and try to find at least one item that is made here in the US. If the products are made here, so are the jobs, most jobs that are found are in the service industry, not manufacturing. All of our clothes and part of our food is imported, probably 90% of our oil, all of our electronics. I could go on and on but you get the picture.

I am not so sure about this one DOC. I know we send alot of stuff over there that is put together and shipped back. Outside of that I am out of the loop on this one.

 

[Guest]

Take a stroll in your favorite store and try to find Levis jeans, you can find them at a huge price, they are very popular but they are all made over seas, there is not one pair of jeans, no matter what the brand, that is made here, none. Check on carharts, the same story, wranglers, same story, lee jeans, same story. You ask what has happened to these factories? They are sitting empty, employees laid off to try and find other means of employment. Greed is the answer, pure and simple greed.

 

[Possum]

Sniperchoke - 11/30/2009 11:02 PM

Correct me if im wrong but the Nazis were the National Socialist Party or do I have my facts incorrect. The reason why the world's leftists give the world's most horrible murderers a pass is because they sympathize with their socioeconomic goals, which include government ownership and/or control over the means of production. In this country the call is for government control, through regulations, as opposed to ownership. Unfortunately, it matters little whether there is a Democratically or Republican-controlled Congress and White House; the march toward greater government control continues. It just happens at a quicker pace with Democrats in charge.
Possom you say, "Come on, there will never be the kind of socialist oppression seen elsewhere here!" You might be right because Americans have become very compliant with unconstitutional and immoral congressional edicts. But what do you think would happen if some Americans began to rise up and heed Thomas Jefferson's admonition "Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." and decided to disobey unconstitutional congressional edicts?

That is what they called themselves, still fascist, with military dictatorship. Reason they gave the fascist control was because they were working and still starving, thought they had pretty much nothing to loose. As far as the government control, I trust it more than EXXON, Halliburton, and so on. As far as Thomas Jefferson, the true leftist liberal. I am getting very sleepy, but what constitutional powers are you talking about? Immoral congressional edicts, you talking about war in Iraq or something? Have to get back with you tomarrow, enjoy conversation. Good night.

 

[beetlespin]

That depression was caused by too much speculation and debt. People were borrowing money to buy stocks. This recession was caused by too much speculation and too much debt. People were buying houses to flip with no intention of living in them and consumers were keeping consumption high by maxing out credit cards, home equity lines of credit, etc. Credit got way too easy to get. When it became sane again it sapped peoples buying power. Credit isn't too hard to get now. Its just sensible now. Once again this recession was caused by speculation and debt (people spending money they don't have). Unfortunately, its going to go on for a while because unemployment is high, pay is down, and taxes are going to go up under this administration. We're in for a long, drawn out, stagnate economic climate.