I went down and visited family this past weekend and we took a trip over to little hall boat ramp on the northern end of Lanier. I could not believe how they (corp of eng) have managed or the better word mismanaged this lake. The pics are zoomed in of the boat ramp that has an extension of about 50 yards beyond the area we used this summer to launch the boat. After the extension is a drop off and then finally water. Pics of Hazard markers that aren't even close to water, etc. It's just sad they have let it get this way and to beat it all "Holiday Marine" is gouging the crap out of anyone who uses their ramp. They are charging $15.00 to park and use their ramp...........
Lake Lanier pics
- Thread starter tndoe270
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Bprice
Well-known member
As a Corp of Engineer employee, let me defend my brothers over there. They are bound by the endangered species act to keep enough water flowing over the mussles in Florida. As usual the COE gets blamed, you need to talk with the Department of Interior first, COE is doing what they are told.
So what about Carters, Clarks Hill, Center hill, etc.? It seems like the only lakes that are having problems are Corp lakes, why's that? Maybe you can educate myself and others on here as well. I just find it hard to believe they want to keep a muscle alive but yet take the chance of running 6 million people out of drinking water. Just befumbles me to no end.
Bprice
Well-known member
Doe, I didn't mean to come off snippy, i think i might of, that wasn't the intent. Most of those lakes are runoff fed watershed, not as much natural spring fed as are the Tennessee River feeders (from what I understand). The major lack of rain is the #1 issue... here are some interesting websites about the issues. </p>
Apalachicola Bay(sp?) bay needs freshwater for Oyster, Mussle industry, and I believe its the fact that they have bigger power brokers politically, which I agree is awful</p>
Georgia Power, TVA (Tombigbee) and Alabama Power (Smith) lakes and waterways are feeling the strife as well. </p>
http://www.daylife.com/topic/Lake_Lanier</p>
http://www.waterwebster.com/FloridaAlabamaGeorgia.htm</p>
http://www.metroatlantachamber.com/macoc/initiatives/img/tri-statefactsheet.pdf</p>
Apalachicola Bay(sp?) bay needs freshwater for Oyster, Mussle industry, and I believe its the fact that they have bigger power brokers politically, which I agree is awful</p>
Georgia Power, TVA (Tombigbee) and Alabama Power (Smith) lakes and waterways are feeling the strife as well. </p>
http://www.daylife.com/topic/Lake_Lanier</p>
http://www.waterwebster.com/FloridaAlabamaGeorgia.htm</p>
http://www.metroatlantachamber.com/macoc/initiatives/img/tri-statefactsheet.pdf</p>
Louie B
Well-known member
Terrible.... The situation couldn't get much worse for the people on Lanier. I'd hate to be a business owner down there, everything there thrives off that lake.
LB
LB
team-d
Well-known member
I second what BPrice is saying. I worked for the COE for 19 years and now work for TVA - both agencies are quite often in a no-win situation when it comes to managing the reservoirs. When mother nature cooperates everyone is happy for the most part - when there is too little or too much water then the agencies get trashed one way or another. Managing the reservoirs is very complex and there are so many variables involved, many of which are quite unpredictable (rainfall, heatwaves, power demands, cooling water demands, drinking water, endangered species laws, environmental laws, irrigation, navigation, recreational uses, etc, etc).
Are the best decisions made all the time? No. Do all the laws make sense to all groups/users? No. The agencies do the best they can in trying to meet all needs while complying with all laws, agreements, contracts, etc.
Like everyone on this forum, I hate to see boat ramps closed and marina owners being high and dry. I personally don't see it getting much better in the future as we continue to overpopulate and increase water usage at alarming rates. It took less than 6 years for the population of Atlanta to go from 4 million to 5 million people. At this rate, by 2013 it will be 6 million people. More power will be needed for air conditioners and blow dryers; more water will be needed for making micro-brews, showering, and washing shiny new cars and boats; more endangered species will be created/discovered that will require additional water flows; more food crops and chickens will have to be raised; are we going to have enough water to sustain this? I wonder...
Are the best decisions made all the time? No. Do all the laws make sense to all groups/users? No. The agencies do the best they can in trying to meet all needs while complying with all laws, agreements, contracts, etc.
Like everyone on this forum, I hate to see boat ramps closed and marina owners being high and dry. I personally don't see it getting much better in the future as we continue to overpopulate and increase water usage at alarming rates. It took less than 6 years for the population of Atlanta to go from 4 million to 5 million people. At this rate, by 2013 it will be 6 million people. More power will be needed for air conditioners and blow dryers; more water will be needed for making micro-brews, showering, and washing shiny new cars and boats; more endangered species will be created/discovered that will require additional water flows; more food crops and chickens will have to be raised; are we going to have enough water to sustain this? I wonder...
I hate to say it, but there's already rumors flying about a big pipeline from the TN River to ATL just to keep up with the growing demands for water in that city.
Primary water source for Lanier is the Chattahoochee and Chestatee. Allatoona's main feeder is the Etowah. I have fished these rivers and they're not much more than the Chickamauga or Lookout creeks-not much water for all the people that depend on it. The water released from these two lakes provides water for most of Alabama, Gerorgia, and the Florida panhandle.
There's no real comparison on the volume of water that feeds the TN River system. We are fortunate to live in this area when the rest of the south is so drought stricken.
Primary water source for Lanier is the Chattahoochee and Chestatee. Allatoona's main feeder is the Etowah. I have fished these rivers and they're not much more than the Chickamauga or Lookout creeks-not much water for all the people that depend on it. The water released from these two lakes provides water for most of Alabama, Gerorgia, and the Florida panhandle.
There's no real comparison on the volume of water that feeds the TN River system. We are fortunate to live in this area when the rest of the south is so drought stricken.
Rock Buster
Well-known member
I respect everyones opinions on this matter, but the facts are the facts. FACT is that the COE is only REQUIRED to allow a minimum of 5000 cfps (cubic feet per second) to flow down the Chattahoochee over the Florida state line. They were keeping it around that amount until recently. NOW they are letting way more GA water flow into Florida than that, even though our lakes have barely come up at all, even with all the rain we have gotten... If you look at the first graph it shows the cfps flowing into Florida, and this is the gauge readings that the COE goes by when determining releases SUPPOSEDLY. Apparently they have forgotten that they only have to let out 5000 cfps as you can tell by the graph. All the extra is going strait to the gulf of mexico where it does NO ONE ANY GOOD WHATSOEVER..... emoDoh The second graph is from the gauge where the Chattahoochee flows past Atlanta below Lake Lanier. The triangles are the avg./median flow over the past 51 years on that given day. The VAST majority of that water is coming from Lanier as there is no other major feeder between that gauge and the Lanier dam. Please notice that there is A LOT of water coming out of Lanier right now, even though they don't need it to sustain the minimal flows to meet regulations going to Florida.
People are losing their jobs in north GA left and right and the Corps of Engineers is sending BILLIONS of gallons a day (100's of times more than the people in Atlanta use) to the ocean where it does no one any good. The oceans are rising gentlemen, they don't need the water... emoScratch
The bottom line is the COE is way more responsible for the low water in the lakes than the drought itself. On the days the Corps did not release much water the lake only fell 1/2 inch (thats with all the usage from the people in Atlanta area, evaporation, seepage, and some water released) yet on several days it fell 6 times that much (3 inches) in a day due to the ridiculous amount the COE was releasing. A lot of water was watering the woods as the COE was letting out so much some days it was overflowing the banks of the Chattahoochee in the Atlanta area!?!?!?!? And this was in the middle of the worst drought in 100 years. Call it what you want, but if there is a word for INSANE, RIDICULOUS, AND STUPID all wrapped up in one word, thats what I would call it... Dirk
People are losing their jobs in north GA left and right and the Corps of Engineers is sending BILLIONS of gallons a day (100's of times more than the people in Atlanta use) to the ocean where it does no one any good. The oceans are rising gentlemen, they don't need the water... emoScratch
The bottom line is the COE is way more responsible for the low water in the lakes than the drought itself. On the days the Corps did not release much water the lake only fell 1/2 inch (thats with all the usage from the people in Atlanta area, evaporation, seepage, and some water released) yet on several days it fell 6 times that much (3 inches) in a day due to the ridiculous amount the COE was releasing. A lot of water was watering the woods as the COE was letting out so much some days it was overflowing the banks of the Chattahoochee in the Atlanta area!?!?!?!? And this was in the middle of the worst drought in 100 years. Call it what you want, but if there is a word for INSANE, RIDICULOUS, AND STUPID all wrapped up in one word, thats what I would call it... Dirk
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Davo
Well-known member
It sucks bad, but I would get out there with a video camera and get some good images of the bottom for when it does come back up.
team-d
Well-known member
I have to respectfully disagree on several points Rock Buster. One of the lowest rainfall years ever recorded in the Lake Lanier basin = one of the lowest reservoir levels ever recorded for Lake Lanier. I hate seeing the reservoirs being so low as much as anyone - it's easy to blame the COE or government, but the fact is we didn't get enough rainfall/water flowing into the reservoirs this year to sustain all the uses we demand.
The first graph you inserted shows an average flow of around 12,000 cfs at Chattahoochee on January 1st - this is solely based on flows through the powerhouse at Lake Seminole. The second graph shows roughly a 1500 cfs average flow for the river in Atlanta on the same day - no correlation with flow at Chattahoochee that same day whatsoever.
The USGS site is an amazing site for an incredible amount of info, including the trending of streamflows and lake levels (and it's paid for by our tax dollars). Looking at the USGS data, the average discharge from Buford dam (Lake Lanier) on January 1st was a mere 881 cfs - this amount of water has nothing to do with the 12,000 cfs average flowing out of Seminole and into Florida on the same day. I would venture to say that all 881 cfs of this water is pumped out for consumption or evaporates well before it ever flows all the way down the river through the numerous other reservoirs and into Florida. One interesting thing to look at is how the discharge from Lanier remains constant at 539 cfs the entire day until 10:15pm, then peaks up to 5,340 cfs at 11:00pm, then back down to 539 cfs by 12:45am. It's not a coincidence that it was New Year's day, pretty cold, and a lot of us "proud to be Americans" were sitting at a bar, friend's house, or on our couch with the heaters cranked, lots of lights on, crockpots full of grub, and our 60-inch big screen TVs and 600 watt surround sound systems blasting out a football game. The minimum flow requirements for this time of year appear to be right around 540 cfs - no doubt determined to be the minimum amount to sustain fish and wildlife in the river, meet regulatory requirements, and supply many people with enough consumable water. Looking ahead at January 2nd and 3rd, both normal workdays, you see that the flows (i.e., power demand) peak up between 6:15am and 8:30am - coincidentally the same time we are waking up to a cold and dark house, cranking up the heaters and turning on a bunch of lights, jumping in a nice hot shower, starting the coffee pot, using our blow-dryers and curling irons, etc, etc. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ga/nwis/uv?cb_00060=on&format=html&period=7&site_no=02334430
One more interesting data set to look at is that of Lake Lanier itself - the lake level actually rose over a half foot from December 28th to January 1st, despite the fact that minimum flows and power peak flows were released each day. This is due to the fact that there was over a quarter-inch of rain in the area on December 28th, and over a half-inch on December 30th (more water coming in the reservoir than being released). http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ga/nwis/uv/?site_no=02334400&PARAmeter_cd=00065,00060,00062
I'll be the first to admit that the COE don't always make what we think are great decisions on water management - but I will also say that the decisions are a result of a lot of variables and considerations - only a few of which are trying to provide us with enough water to keep the boat ramps wet, marinas floating, and reservoir fishery populations sustainable. A drought like this really magnifies how important the water is to us in so many ways, and how using it for one purpose means sacrifice for another purpose...
I don't mean to go on the attack and I hope nobody takes offense to what I'm saying. We live in a pretty darn good country whose government does a pretty decent job of affording us opportunities to do a lot of things we love to do. I don't claim to be an expert on reservoir management, but I've worked in for the feds in hydropower for almost half of my life, and do understand a lot of the complexities of reservoir/water management.
I'm done rambling. This is a great forum for us to be able to rant on about things like this. Hope to see you on the water - Matt
The first graph you inserted shows an average flow of around 12,000 cfs at Chattahoochee on January 1st - this is solely based on flows through the powerhouse at Lake Seminole. The second graph shows roughly a 1500 cfs average flow for the river in Atlanta on the same day - no correlation with flow at Chattahoochee that same day whatsoever.
The USGS site is an amazing site for an incredible amount of info, including the trending of streamflows and lake levels (and it's paid for by our tax dollars). Looking at the USGS data, the average discharge from Buford dam (Lake Lanier) on January 1st was a mere 881 cfs - this amount of water has nothing to do with the 12,000 cfs average flowing out of Seminole and into Florida on the same day. I would venture to say that all 881 cfs of this water is pumped out for consumption or evaporates well before it ever flows all the way down the river through the numerous other reservoirs and into Florida. One interesting thing to look at is how the discharge from Lanier remains constant at 539 cfs the entire day until 10:15pm, then peaks up to 5,340 cfs at 11:00pm, then back down to 539 cfs by 12:45am. It's not a coincidence that it was New Year's day, pretty cold, and a lot of us "proud to be Americans" were sitting at a bar, friend's house, or on our couch with the heaters cranked, lots of lights on, crockpots full of grub, and our 60-inch big screen TVs and 600 watt surround sound systems blasting out a football game. The minimum flow requirements for this time of year appear to be right around 540 cfs - no doubt determined to be the minimum amount to sustain fish and wildlife in the river, meet regulatory requirements, and supply many people with enough consumable water. Looking ahead at January 2nd and 3rd, both normal workdays, you see that the flows (i.e., power demand) peak up between 6:15am and 8:30am - coincidentally the same time we are waking up to a cold and dark house, cranking up the heaters and turning on a bunch of lights, jumping in a nice hot shower, starting the coffee pot, using our blow-dryers and curling irons, etc, etc. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ga/nwis/uv?cb_00060=on&format=html&period=7&site_no=02334430
One more interesting data set to look at is that of Lake Lanier itself - the lake level actually rose over a half foot from December 28th to January 1st, despite the fact that minimum flows and power peak flows were released each day. This is due to the fact that there was over a quarter-inch of rain in the area on December 28th, and over a half-inch on December 30th (more water coming in the reservoir than being released). http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ga/nwis/uv/?site_no=02334400&PARAmeter_cd=00065,00060,00062
I'll be the first to admit that the COE don't always make what we think are great decisions on water management - but I will also say that the decisions are a result of a lot of variables and considerations - only a few of which are trying to provide us with enough water to keep the boat ramps wet, marinas floating, and reservoir fishery populations sustainable. A drought like this really magnifies how important the water is to us in so many ways, and how using it for one purpose means sacrifice for another purpose...
I don't mean to go on the attack and I hope nobody takes offense to what I'm saying. We live in a pretty darn good country whose government does a pretty decent job of affording us opportunities to do a lot of things we love to do. I don't claim to be an expert on reservoir management, but I've worked in for the feds in hydropower for almost half of my life, and do understand a lot of the complexities of reservoir/water management.
I'm done rambling. This is a great forum for us to be able to rant on about things like this. Hope to see you on the water - Matt
G
Guest
Guest
It will all hit the fan in around 3 months when atlanta runs out of water, there will be plenty of blame to go around. If you thought fema caught he**, just wait. Everybody involved is sitting on their hands and doing nothing, if this wasn't so the water levels would be going up or stabilizing but they are still dropping every day. Pull up a chair and watch the action. This is our politicians in action.
SpurHunter
Well-known member
Thanks guys for all the excelent information here. I for one appreciate the opinions and facts brought forth by all. My only knowledge comes from the stores in the areas that are drying-up, not from lack of H2O, but money as well from the lack of water in Lanier. There is NO fishing going on to speak of, and in turn it doesnt bring those folks into the stores for gear, as well as a lot of incedental purchases like, warm cloths, hand warmers, snacks, drinks, licenses, and even leading to things like duck hunting and such. It is a VERY real dilema right now down there. I am praying for rain....
Rock Buster
Well-known member
No disrespect to you Matt, but you are way off. The city of Atlanta USES A FRACTION OF the amount being let downsteam by the COE. There are no major feeders whatsoever between Lanier and Westpoint lake, only small creeks. I dont think you realize how much 800 cfps is... 1 cubic foot of water is 7.5 gallons, therefore every second that they release 1000 cubic feet per second they are realeasing 7500 gallons. Therefore in an hour of releasing 1000 cfps that would be 450,000 gallons or in a day that is 11 million 250 thousand gallons. Unfortunately on some days right in the middle of the drought the Corps released a daily average of 3000+ cfps many days, which was at least 33 million 750 thousand gallons out of Lanier in one day!!!!! That is more than the Atlanta water plants drawing from Lanier process in a couple weeks, or even have the ability to process if they ran fullbore 24/7. Therefore it is REALITY that if you made a pie chart showing where the Lanier water is going, Human Usage and Evaporation would be a small piece compared to the VAST majority of the pie that would be water released by the Corps.
I have monitored the amount coming in and going out of Lanier very closely since June and on virtually every single day the COE let out AT LEAST 10 TIMES MORE WATER THAN WHAT WAS COMING IN. That is what I think is unacceptable. Everyone wants to blame the problem on human usage and Atlanta's growth but that is a VERY SMALL part of the problem. Like I stated before the lake only fell a half inch a day when the COE released 1000-1500 cfps right in the middle of the drought and with all the Atlanta usage. On the days when the COE released 3000-5000 cfps the lake fell 2-3 inches. Therefore anyone that is able to think rationally at all can deduct that the rate that the lake has fallen is MUCH MORE in relation to how much the COE lets out than to how much the terrible Atlanta people use brushing their teeth and washing their cars (Most of that water by the way goes down the drain, to the treatment plant, and right back into the Chattahoochee, so most of it isn't wasted at all).
The bottom line ***** FACT ***** that I am trying to make is that the MAIN reason Lake Lanier is so low is not from human useage, evaporation, or even lack of rainfall, as all these factors would only drop the lake 1/2 inch a day even with the COE releasing 1000-1500 cfps. The MAIN reason the lake has fallen so low is that the Corps has on most days during the drought released so much water (3000-5000 cfps)that THEY caused the lake to fall 2-3 inches a day, in fact at one point the lake fell a foot in 4 days they were releasing so much. Lake Sinclair and Lake Oconee in North GA are right in the middle of the same drought Lanier is in, yet they are at FullPool. Bartletts Ferry lake on the Chattahoochee below Westpoint is at FullPool. Funny thing is that they are GA Power lakes and not controlled by the COE, or the people living around them would be in a crisis situation too...
Yes the drought has been terrible and the lake would have fallen some no matter what, but the point (which is a FACT)I am trying to make is that the reason it has fallen to a record low so quickly is because the COE released so many (10+) TIMES more water out than was coming in. Dirk
I have monitored the amount coming in and going out of Lanier very closely since June and on virtually every single day the COE let out AT LEAST 10 TIMES MORE WATER THAN WHAT WAS COMING IN. That is what I think is unacceptable. Everyone wants to blame the problem on human usage and Atlanta's growth but that is a VERY SMALL part of the problem. Like I stated before the lake only fell a half inch a day when the COE released 1000-1500 cfps right in the middle of the drought and with all the Atlanta usage. On the days when the COE released 3000-5000 cfps the lake fell 2-3 inches. Therefore anyone that is able to think rationally at all can deduct that the rate that the lake has fallen is MUCH MORE in relation to how much the COE lets out than to how much the terrible Atlanta people use brushing their teeth and washing their cars (Most of that water by the way goes down the drain, to the treatment plant, and right back into the Chattahoochee, so most of it isn't wasted at all).
The bottom line ***** FACT ***** that I am trying to make is that the MAIN reason Lake Lanier is so low is not from human useage, evaporation, or even lack of rainfall, as all these factors would only drop the lake 1/2 inch a day even with the COE releasing 1000-1500 cfps. The MAIN reason the lake has fallen so low is that the Corps has on most days during the drought released so much water (3000-5000 cfps)that THEY caused the lake to fall 2-3 inches a day, in fact at one point the lake fell a foot in 4 days they were releasing so much. Lake Sinclair and Lake Oconee in North GA are right in the middle of the same drought Lanier is in, yet they are at FullPool. Bartletts Ferry lake on the Chattahoochee below Westpoint is at FullPool. Funny thing is that they are GA Power lakes and not controlled by the COE, or the people living around them would be in a crisis situation too...
Yes the drought has been terrible and the lake would have fallen some no matter what, but the point (which is a FACT)I am trying to make is that the reason it has fallen to a record low so quickly is because the COE released so many (10+) TIMES more water out than was coming in. Dirk
BadBass
Well-known member
No disrespect Rock Buster, but you have fell victim to your own figures. The type of units involved in watershed management are much larger than the average person deals with as a fellow civil engineer does. The realease of by the COE is small compared by the water usage of the Atlanta metropolitan area. According the city engineer of atlanta, yes check their website, averages 100 MGD per day. Yes thats 100 million gallons per day. The region removes approximately 420 MGD from the Chattahoochee river system according to the ARC. The "USGS flow rates that you compare is not apples to apples. There are many significant tributary and releases through west point, eufuala, and siminole. The atlanta regional planning commission (ARC) estimates that there is approximately 4 million people living in the four county area. If the average water use is 100 gal per day, suddenly your at 400 MGD of water use. Think about how much water you may use in a day. Washing Machines, showers, toilet flushes.. etc. I can beat you that a monthly average for the average person is at least 100 gallons per day. The reason lakes such as Barlett's Ferry is a full pool is that the water used by the urban sprawl goes back in down stream. 400 MGD out from upstream, 400 MGD in downstream. These are basic principles thought in engineering classes.
Folks, I am going to let you in on a secret here. There are only 2 reasons altanta is low on water. Faster than expected growth rate and the extreme drought conditions. Here's the deal. The regional master planners back 10 years ago performed hydrologic studies and modeling of water usage. In these models they figure in rainfalls (based on weather models), water usage growth, and guess what the COE releases are no suprise, they were figured in too. The reason the water levels are well below the models are that Atlanta has seen growth well above the anticipation in the models (Huge after Katrina) and the rainfall is much less than put into the model. They are having difficultly in dealing the wastewater also, but guess what that goes into back into the watershed below ATL that figures into that flow rate for the Appochiola river that was shown above. Atlanta has nobody to blame but itself.
What's the future for Atlanta. Well, to continue growing the region and successfully manage the watershed, altanta must find an additonal source of water. This means transporting additonal water into the chattahoochee watershed district, because the water shed can't continue to support it and Atlanta does not have major underlying Aquifers. The is usually a not a good situation and is not even permitted by TDEC. Atlanta has to go north or south. If they go south, they are tapping into underground aquifers or possibly even desalination from the coast. If they come north geuss what, straight to Chattanooga. You know what, Altanta wants our water bad and Chattanooga wants their money. Possibly to get the water, atlanta may even pay for things such as highspeed bullet trains and other things. Another little secret, engineering firms have already began evlauating routes.
Just some educated thoughts
Folks, I am going to let you in on a secret here. There are only 2 reasons altanta is low on water. Faster than expected growth rate and the extreme drought conditions. Here's the deal. The regional master planners back 10 years ago performed hydrologic studies and modeling of water usage. In these models they figure in rainfalls (based on weather models), water usage growth, and guess what the COE releases are no suprise, they were figured in too. The reason the water levels are well below the models are that Atlanta has seen growth well above the anticipation in the models (Huge after Katrina) and the rainfall is much less than put into the model. They are having difficultly in dealing the wastewater also, but guess what that goes into back into the watershed below ATL that figures into that flow rate for the Appochiola river that was shown above. Atlanta has nobody to blame but itself.
What's the future for Atlanta. Well, to continue growing the region and successfully manage the watershed, altanta must find an additonal source of water. This means transporting additonal water into the chattahoochee watershed district, because the water shed can't continue to support it and Atlanta does not have major underlying Aquifers. The is usually a not a good situation and is not even permitted by TDEC. Atlanta has to go north or south. If they go south, they are tapping into underground aquifers or possibly even desalination from the coast. If they come north geuss what, straight to Chattanooga. You know what, Altanta wants our water bad and Chattanooga wants their money. Possibly to get the water, atlanta may even pay for things such as highspeed bullet trains and other things. Another little secret, engineering firms have already began evlauating routes.
Just some educated thoughts
SpurHunter
Well-known member
</p>
I have been saying this for years. Atlanta WILL get a line from the TN river in the next 10 years, most likely under that rail-line. </p>
Rock Buster
Well-known member
Your figures are wayyyy off on how much they draw out of Lanier to get treated. Like I have stated SEVERAL times THE LAKE ONLY FALLS ABOUT A HALF INCH ON DAYS THAT THE CORPS RELEASES LESS THAN 1500 CFPS, reguardless of how many showers are taken. There are no creeks of any significant size between lake Lanier and the Atlanta guage on the Chattahoochee. The graph is from Nov 2-9 (no rain in this period) of water flows coming out of Lanier down the Hooch past Atlanta. Here is a chart showing the Lanier water levels at the dam from the COE website at http://water.sam.usace.army.mil/gage/acf/prob1.txt :
MIDNIGHT POOLS AT BUFORD
2008 WATER YEAR
OCT NOV DEC JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP
1 1058.73 1055.46 1051.75 1051.31
2 1058.65 1055.36 1051.69 1051.29
3 1058.55 1055.28 1051.66 1051.28
4 1058.43 1055.19 1051.60
5 1058.37 1054.99 1051.55
6 1058.30 1054.80 1051.48
7 1058.25 1054.55 1051.40
8 1058.12 1054.34 1051.36
9 1058.05 1054.08 1051.34
10 1057.90 1053.99 1051.27
11 1057.74 1053.93 1051.22
12 1057.52 1053.71 1051.15
13 1057.44 1053.52 1051.08
14 1057.35 1053.29 1051.02
15 1057.12 1053.07 1051.02
16 1056.93 1052.87 1050.99
17 1056.77 1052.82 1050.95
18 1056.53 1052.76 1050.91
19 1056.39 1052.62 1050.87
20 1056.34 1052.49 1050.82
21 1056.27 1052.33 1050.86
22 1056.20 1052.23 1050.83
23 1056.16 1052.12 1050.84
24 1056.11 1052.07 1050.87
25 1056.03 1052.02 1050.81
26 1055.91 1052.01 1050.79
27 1055.87 1051.97 1050.80
28 1055.80 1051.91 1050.94
29 1055.75 1051.86 1051.03
30 1055.63 1051.81 1051.24
31 1055.55 1051.32
AVG 1057.06 1053.31 1051.14
MAX 1058.73 1055.46 1051.75
MIN 1055.55 1051.81 1050.79
As you can see from the chart above, on the below dates the water fell the amount I have listed
Nov 2 - .1 feet (which is just over an inch)
Nov 3 - .06 feet (which is just over 1/2 inch)
Nov 4 - .09 feet (which is about an inch)
*notice on the graph below that they really started releasing a lot of water on the 5th, and please be aware that it takes several hours for the water to get to the gauge from the dam which is about 20 river miles.
Nov 5 - .20 feet (which is over 2 inches)
Nov 6 - .19 feet (which is just over 2 inches)
Nov 7 - .25 feet (which is 3 inches)
Nov 8 - .21 feet (which is about 2 1/2 inches)
Nov 9 - .26 inches (which is just over 3 inches)
Need I say more????? If you can read you can see it for yourself, and you don't have to be an engineer to see that when they start releasing on average for a day over 3000 cfps, the lake starts falling 2-3 inches a day. When they release on average for a day about 1000 cfps then the lake falls about a half an inch on that day. Not my opinion, FACT its right there in front of you to see for yourself. Now I guess you can choose to think that on those days that the COE just happened to be releasing heavily that all the Atlanta people decided to use more water, and on the days the Corps just happened to be not releasing much, no one used any water.... Yea right... I hope a few of you are getting this at least, that the facts are that the COE has been sending WAYYYYY more water downstream during the worst drought in 100+ years than could possibly be used by humans even if Atlanta were several times bigger than it is. There is PLENTY of water stored in the lake to supply all the people in North Georgia even if the population is many times larger than it is now, IF the COE does not keep sending most of it to the ocean. I know this to be the truth and you can believe what you want. I have just shown it to you and if you chose to not see the truth then so be it, I can't show it any plainer than I just did.
MIDNIGHT POOLS AT BUFORD
2008 WATER YEAR
OCT NOV DEC JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP
1 1058.73 1055.46 1051.75 1051.31
2 1058.65 1055.36 1051.69 1051.29
3 1058.55 1055.28 1051.66 1051.28
4 1058.43 1055.19 1051.60
5 1058.37 1054.99 1051.55
6 1058.30 1054.80 1051.48
7 1058.25 1054.55 1051.40
8 1058.12 1054.34 1051.36
9 1058.05 1054.08 1051.34
10 1057.90 1053.99 1051.27
11 1057.74 1053.93 1051.22
12 1057.52 1053.71 1051.15
13 1057.44 1053.52 1051.08
14 1057.35 1053.29 1051.02
15 1057.12 1053.07 1051.02
16 1056.93 1052.87 1050.99
17 1056.77 1052.82 1050.95
18 1056.53 1052.76 1050.91
19 1056.39 1052.62 1050.87
20 1056.34 1052.49 1050.82
21 1056.27 1052.33 1050.86
22 1056.20 1052.23 1050.83
23 1056.16 1052.12 1050.84
24 1056.11 1052.07 1050.87
25 1056.03 1052.02 1050.81
26 1055.91 1052.01 1050.79
27 1055.87 1051.97 1050.80
28 1055.80 1051.91 1050.94
29 1055.75 1051.86 1051.03
30 1055.63 1051.81 1051.24
31 1055.55 1051.32
AVG 1057.06 1053.31 1051.14
MAX 1058.73 1055.46 1051.75
MIN 1055.55 1051.81 1050.79
As you can see from the chart above, on the below dates the water fell the amount I have listed
Nov 2 - .1 feet (which is just over an inch)
Nov 3 - .06 feet (which is just over 1/2 inch)
Nov 4 - .09 feet (which is about an inch)
*notice on the graph below that they really started releasing a lot of water on the 5th, and please be aware that it takes several hours for the water to get to the gauge from the dam which is about 20 river miles.
Nov 5 - .20 feet (which is over 2 inches)
Nov 6 - .19 feet (which is just over 2 inches)
Nov 7 - .25 feet (which is 3 inches)
Nov 8 - .21 feet (which is about 2 1/2 inches)
Nov 9 - .26 inches (which is just over 3 inches)
Need I say more????? If you can read you can see it for yourself, and you don't have to be an engineer to see that when they start releasing on average for a day over 3000 cfps, the lake starts falling 2-3 inches a day. When they release on average for a day about 1000 cfps then the lake falls about a half an inch on that day. Not my opinion, FACT its right there in front of you to see for yourself. Now I guess you can choose to think that on those days that the COE just happened to be releasing heavily that all the Atlanta people decided to use more water, and on the days the Corps just happened to be not releasing much, no one used any water.... Yea right... I hope a few of you are getting this at least, that the facts are that the COE has been sending WAYYYYY more water downstream during the worst drought in 100+ years than could possibly be used by humans even if Atlanta were several times bigger than it is. There is PLENTY of water stored in the lake to supply all the people in North Georgia even if the population is many times larger than it is now, IF the COE does not keep sending most of it to the ocean. I know this to be the truth and you can believe what you want. I have just shown it to you and if you chose to not see the truth then so be it, I can't show it any plainer than I just did.
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Rock Buster
Well-known member
One more thing and I will drop this subject. emoSmile BadBass made some good points and his figures seem pretty accurate EXCEPT for the fact that only 1 of the 5 Atlanta and immediate surrounding counties draws water from Lanier and that is Gwinnett. Dekalb County draws from the Chattahoochee river way below Lanier, Clayton County draws from the Flint river and a couple creeks in south Atlanta, Fulton County draws all its water from 2 reservoirs in Downtown Atlanta, and Cobb County draws from lake Allatoona. So how much does Gwinnett County actually draw out of Lanier??? Is it more than the Corps is releasing out of the dam like BadBass stated in his remark above??? NO WAY, not even close. I researched it and the figures are on the graph below from the Gwinnett County website (or you can see for yourself at this link):
http://www.gwinnettcounty.com/cgi-bin/gwincty/egov/ep/gcNavView.do?path=Home|Hidden+Page|Lake%20Lanier
Now there are 2 other smaller counties 30-40 miles north of Atlanta (Forsyth and Hall) also using water from Lanier but they are much smaller population wise and don't use anywhere close to as much as Gwinnett County
Here is the chart Gwinnett County made showing how much they are taking out of the lake in comparison to how much the COE is releasing, as the Chairman of the Gwinnett County Commission apparently saw the same thing I have seen:
http://www.gwinnettcounty.com/cgi-bin/gwincty/egov/ep/gcNavView.do?path=Home|Hidden+Page|Lake%20Lanier
Now there are 2 other smaller counties 30-40 miles north of Atlanta (Forsyth and Hall) also using water from Lanier but they are much smaller population wise and don't use anywhere close to as much as Gwinnett County
Here is the chart Gwinnett County made showing how much they are taking out of the lake in comparison to how much the COE is releasing, as the Chairman of the Gwinnett County Commission apparently saw the same thing I have seen:
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jimmystriton
Well-known member
Well there are a lot of people that have these great ideas. How many of you actually live and fish on lanier. What about the people with so called deep water docks and that pay their permit for the docks and have no water near them. The COE is the most worthless group that does nothing but talk about how hard they work. just my opinion. I have witnessed people here on lanier (COE) in their office doing nothing at all. I fish mainly Lanier well used to when i could get a boat in the water. I have complained on numerous occasions about the conditions of some of their boat docks at the boat ramps. They have no boards or bumpers or the boards are comming off. Therefore it scrathes the crap out of a boat when you tie one up. I pay to use this place and would expect that they would maintain the upkeep of their boat ramps parking areas as well as the docks there. COE rangers were giving us parking tickets when we were down to two ramps. There was not enough parking to hold the amount of boats that were being launched. They said oh well. WHat kind of crap is that. Maybe they could get off their butts and fix stuff instead of making hard times even harder. They are now taking donations from people to extend ramps. I am confused dont we pay everytime we launch a boat....I was told that that money goes to fund the war in Iraq because it was the Army COE... Well since I have been there in Iraq I NEVER saw any of them there nor anything in the forms of their money. I do know that if want some excuses go to the COE they are full of them... Oh yeah and any of you are wondering yes i am very frustrated and dissapointed with this. This is one of the top spotted bass fisheries in the country and we are letting it go to crap. Everyone wants to blame the lack of rain. I agree it has been a drought. It is not rocket science though if you let out more than you take in every day you will run out????? I would also bet that if were in a flood stage from too much rain we would flood our selves instead of sending too much water down to FL and AL. It may flood the mussle. Since when do the mussles take a presedence over humans.........SAVE A FISHERY EAT MORE MUSCLES is my new bumper sticker...bet i can sale enough to make me my own ramp that will reach out into the water on lanier.... Then i can charge the COE to come see it..........
SpurHunter
Well-known member
Blaming the COE for doing something or nothing at all, is akin to blaming a stop-light fro turning red. They dont make the decisions, they just do what the government tells them. That is the job of the COE, no more no less. </p>
Take your concerns to legislators and see if things can be changes. </p>
Take your concerns to legislators and see if things can be changes. </p>
jimmystriton
Well-known member
so let me understand they have nothing to do with the lake????? So if the GOV told them to jump of a bridge they would do it. Not disagreeing that they are following what is said...They also have people to fight for what is right...they dont do that. Can you explain the docks at the loading ramps. why are they not fixed. Maybe the gov did not tell them to fix it. Maybe thats why they never work no one told them to.......Dont care how you look at it the COE is to blame. Maybe not 100% but at least 90%. Look at all the WMA who gets blamed for them being poorly managed its the DNR. Funny how nothing gets done and no one wants to take the blame.....I look at it like this i payed for an annual parking permit and got to use it for 8 months. TVA fixes the docks on Chick when they are broke dont they....Guess the gov is harder on them. Oh wait maybe its called doing their JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go to the COE anyday and you will see over half dozen people looking at each other. As the matter of fact I can even go take pics of them if you would like!!!!!! I bet they have someone employed at the bathroom to let them know what to do when they are done!!
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